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Thinking about hg/ss vs. ofc/ss...
...the ultimate smackdown!
Yet again, flist, you have to listen to my rather ill-organized and highly subjective musings on the subject.
Disclaimer: I have read very little hg/ss. I haven't read a lot of ofc/ss. Honestly, this is just me wandering about and reading one fic and having some thoughts about it, and trying to use that fic to extrapolate further about hg/ss fics in general. It isn't scientifically based, and it's merely for my own amusement, and I'm aware that it's flawed reasoning.
I was wandering around (er, okay, looking for h/c), and![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
rexluscus rec'd a rather angsty rec list. I've read (and bookmarked for the List) many of the fics on it, but there were some that I've never seen, and of course I had to check them out.
The thing is, I've never really been into the hg/ss pairing. As most of you know, I'm really not into the kids at all. The few adult/kid pairing stories I've read usually take place long after the "kid" has left Hogwarts. I'm especially not interested in hg/ss because (and this is my personal opinion! Yes! Utterly subjective!) a) I do not really like Hermione much as a character, b) I get a bit queasy when the lines of student/teacher are crossed, such as they are when hg/ss takes place while hg is still attending Hogwarts, and c) I much prefer Snape having a relationship with an adult character, preferably someone who has lived a little...someone who will make a good partner for him, someone with experience.
So one of the fics on the Angsty List happens to be hg/ss...and, being the crazy h/c addict that I am, I felt compelled to read it. Thank goodness Hermione is at least a teacher in this fic.
The author is clearly intelligent, well-read, very into philosophy and literature. The characters are given to long, emotional thought patterns.
But I'm seeing a few things here that make me wonder. The language is well-developed, mostly, except for the author's continual attempts to shoehorn British words into her mix, sometimes incorrectly (and if I notice it, that's bad). But that's where I began to really notice that the language is very...Regency romance. The long, emotional passages are filled with attempts to figure out the other person. The dialogue, which is rather good except for its Regency flavor, is also filled with...what I like to think of as "trump scenes".
What's a trump scene/trump line? A trump scene is a scene the author thought was so clever and/or fabulous that they had to warp the logical procession of plot to push it in. I mean, hell, I've done it, definitely. The thing is, if you're going to do something like that, you really need to smooth things over, and make it fit properly. I've seen it in anime, where the artists really wanted to do this cool scene with water snakes/red zombies/Macgyver; in fact, I think in some anime films they simply illustrate a bunch of cool scenes and play connect the dots with the rest of the story, so the poor writers end up trying to figure out how to get Macgyver into the plot.
Anyway, a trump line is more obvious to me, most of the time. It's where the author thinks, I've always thought Snape is tremendously brave, and I think that none of the other teachers really understand how brave he is, so then they write a totally unnecessary staff meeting where one of the characters stands up and says while pointing to Snape, "I cannot sit here a moment longer and listen to that pompous windbag Umbridge when another man, with bravery in spades, sits here quietly." It's rather gratuitous, and it's obvious to...well, readers who pay attention.
In this author's fic, I've noticed trump scene after trump line after trump scene. There are some great lines, absolutely, but often I wonder if the scene was created to continue the plot, or just to deliver a zinger.
Snape begins as rather Snape-like, but slowly turns into some sort of Regency zombie, quiet and rumbling and deep-voiced and tender. He started as an uncaring bastard, but it turns out that once someone slips under his skin it all just melts away. Seriously, this is really beginning to bother me. Instead of having deep-rooted issues that would frighten off any sane witch, he somehow turns out to be this lovely Mr. Darcy after all. What makes Snape for me isn't just the cold sarcasm, the wit, the obvious power and intellect; it's also the immaturity he still possesses. That flash of heat at his core. You remember, the whole PoA thing, being denied his medal and Sirius Black being Kissed, and he goes mental. That's what made me shy away from him, and, strangely, it also made him more human and flawed and brought me right back. He's crazy. No, really. Anyone who holds on to a grudge that bitterly for that long...wow. He's just so damned complicated and downright fascinating that it won't matter what JKR reveals in book 7, whether it's good/bad/for himself/eating Lucky Charms--I'm hooked. Anyone who can fool that many people--that many talented people--has something between his ears. I also firmly believe that, were you to actually form some sort of tentative relationship with him, you would simply peel back layer upon layer of social awkwardness, bitterness, and regret. And there would not be a perfectly charming Victorian gentleman at the center.
The plot of this hg/ss story is really bothering me, as well. It seems rather arbitrary. Hermione is stolen away by a Malfoy, with little reason, and then returned. People are killed, and there are repercussions, but it all seems...inconsistent, somehow. I shouldn't judge this, honestly, because I'm not finished, but it just seems a little...uneven. The writing made me hope that it would interest me, and it does, but for the wrong reason, which is I'm now fascinated with why people write hg/ss and what they see in the pairing.
For example, I just read a scene where there is an attack on Muggles, and Snape is owled the news by one of the Death Eaters, who is taunting him. Instead of going straight to the Headmaster, for some bizarre reason Snape goes to Hermione first. Why? She has no knowledge of the attack, was not threatened by it, and will have nothing to do with the cleanup. He is, in fact, wasting time by talking to her. Valuable time. Later, she somehow is present at a meeting between the Headmaster and a high-ranking Ministry official, for no reason whatsoever. I'm just a little skeptical here. It reminds me of the ofc pitfall, which is when you become too attached to your character, and you view everything in the story warped through her lens.
Interestingly enough, nearly all of the characters speak with the same voice. A new character has just entered the scene and challenged Snape in an extremely caustic and overwordy near-Victorian manner, and the words could have come from nearly any of the other characters as well.
I am also getting sick of Hermione thinking over and over again, "It's Snape I'm kissing/touching/playing the piano for!" She's quite astonished/melancholy each time. It's all so highly emotional and overwrought that I just keep thinking about how the author is going to maintain this level of hand-wringing for the rest of the story.
The number of times a character inquires if the other characters in his/her vicinity are "all right" have to peak in the hundreds. I've just read a scene where one character asks this in a very serious manner, and then the character who was just asked, asks the other two characters in the same very serious manner. I don't know about you, but this seems extremely awkward for a conversation, even during wartime. That's one of the problems I'm seeing; plot and common sense sacrificed for the continual desire to have everyone constantly solicitous of the main characters.
And here we have the rather common plot: the Formal Exchange of Christmas Gifts. Is it ever anything other than a book for Snape? He always treasures it, too. Now that's a common refrain for both pairings. Snape actually goes out and has to weather actual human interactions in order to procure her something. It's always something she can't afford or couldn't bring herself to purchase, or some frightfully difficult to find book. Or some insanely amazing artifact. A lot of fanfic writers use this exchange as a tool. It's halfway through the school year, so the characters are bonding already, and this is the impetus that puts them over, or the affirmation that makes the characters treasure each other that much more. I haven't read many hg/ss stories where she's still a student, but I'd imagine that there are probably several that contain a secret gift exchange, with a bit of parchment attached containing the initials SS.
Hmm. I am also seeing something happening on the side...that is, Hermione is giving up her friends. Subtly. She's beginning to feel uncomfortable around them, and view herself as more of a contemporary of Snape's, instead. I wonder how many hg/ss fics have this feature. Perhaps it's something the fanfic writer does to shield Snape from further scrutiny, or to make him feel more at ease...to suggest that theirs is a unique understanding, and everyone else is an idiot.
The absolute worst, however, is the bizarre man who is pretending to be Headmaster Dumbledore. He brought them together with a project, and even forced Snape to receive a spell from Hermione by locking the door to his room and casting a spell on the door that would not let them out until Hermione cast a spell on Snape, which naturally required her to touch him. Dumbledore continually meddles, pushes them together, and is rather happy that they are becoming a couple. I definitely see Dumbledore as ruthless, sometimes, when he has to be, but I do not see him engaging in this kind of matchmaking, period. Especially after HBP. He likes people to make up their own minds, I think.
Naturally, I was comparing this story to ss/ofc stories I've read, and I started thinking about (warning! more subjective items approaching!) how I've seen more Mr. Darcy-style hg/ss stories than ofc/ss. I wonder i an analysis of hg/ss vs. ofc/ss stories would reveal other trends, such as author ages, basic plots, and Headmaster interference. Seriously, I've seen many more manipulative-Dumbledore hg/ss stories than ofc/ss stories.
I must admit, I do have a soft spot for these stories, generally; I like the rude, rich, and quite smart and fierce but secretly smitten Mr. Darcy-style hero once in a while. But I don't read Snape!fic for that, because that's not who Snape is to me.
One of the basic differences, of course, is that hg is a static canon character. Certainly she changes from one author's incarnation to the next. At her heart, however, she is still (or should be) a know-it-all bookworm, brave and smart (and annoying). An ofc can be an infinite number of characters. Spunky, feisty, nasty, vampiric...they're all out there, and therefore the approach is generally different from story to story. The hg/ss fics have a much smaller number of permutations, which have most likely been thoroughly explored at this point in fandom. That most likely explains why there are so many Dumbledore-puts-them-together hg/ss fics.
Most of the ss/ofc stories that I've read have definitely carried with them the distinct feel of modern romance novels. There are several highly popular styles, and the Snape character fits quite well into some, as long as you excise his crazier bits.
Upon further reflection I think that the reason ss/ofc and ss/hg fics generally differ is because they are based in different fantasies. After all, some fanfiction really is an exploration of fantasy; the writer wants to enter the world and play in it. They want to use the delicious characters in their own scenarios. Stories based on the ofc/ss pairing are rooted in a different romance tradition than stories based in the hg/ss pairing, and I think that the differing psychology of these two pairings explains some of the differences therein.
I'm tired and now I've lost the entire train of thought. I will most likely regret putting this up half-baked, but really, it's just vaguely-definied thoughts, and what else am I going to do with them?
Yet again, flist, you have to listen to my rather ill-organized and highly subjective musings on the subject.
Disclaimer: I have read very little hg/ss. I haven't read a lot of ofc/ss. Honestly, this is just me wandering about and reading one fic and having some thoughts about it, and trying to use that fic to extrapolate further about hg/ss fics in general. It isn't scientifically based, and it's merely for my own amusement, and I'm aware that it's flawed reasoning.
I was wandering around (er, okay, looking for h/c), and
rexluscus rec'd a rather angsty rec list. I've read (and bookmarked for the List) many of the fics on it, but there were some that I've never seen, and of course I had to check them out.The thing is, I've never really been into the hg/ss pairing. As most of you know, I'm really not into the kids at all. The few adult/kid pairing stories I've read usually take place long after the "kid" has left Hogwarts. I'm especially not interested in hg/ss because (and this is my personal opinion! Yes! Utterly subjective!) a) I do not really like Hermione much as a character, b) I get a bit queasy when the lines of student/teacher are crossed, such as they are when hg/ss takes place while hg is still attending Hogwarts, and c) I much prefer Snape having a relationship with an adult character, preferably someone who has lived a little...someone who will make a good partner for him, someone with experience.
So one of the fics on the Angsty List happens to be hg/ss...and, being the crazy h/c addict that I am, I felt compelled to read it. Thank goodness Hermione is at least a teacher in this fic.
The author is clearly intelligent, well-read, very into philosophy and literature. The characters are given to long, emotional thought patterns.
But I'm seeing a few things here that make me wonder. The language is well-developed, mostly, except for the author's continual attempts to shoehorn British words into her mix, sometimes incorrectly (and if I notice it, that's bad). But that's where I began to really notice that the language is very...Regency romance. The long, emotional passages are filled with attempts to figure out the other person. The dialogue, which is rather good except for its Regency flavor, is also filled with...what I like to think of as "trump scenes".
What's a trump scene/trump line? A trump scene is a scene the author thought was so clever and/or fabulous that they had to warp the logical procession of plot to push it in. I mean, hell, I've done it, definitely. The thing is, if you're going to do something like that, you really need to smooth things over, and make it fit properly. I've seen it in anime, where the artists really wanted to do this cool scene with water snakes/red zombies/Macgyver; in fact, I think in some anime films they simply illustrate a bunch of cool scenes and play connect the dots with the rest of the story, so the poor writers end up trying to figure out how to get Macgyver into the plot.
Anyway, a trump line is more obvious to me, most of the time. It's where the author thinks, I've always thought Snape is tremendously brave, and I think that none of the other teachers really understand how brave he is, so then they write a totally unnecessary staff meeting where one of the characters stands up and says while pointing to Snape, "I cannot sit here a moment longer and listen to that pompous windbag Umbridge when another man, with bravery in spades, sits here quietly." It's rather gratuitous, and it's obvious to...well, readers who pay attention.
In this author's fic, I've noticed trump scene after trump line after trump scene. There are some great lines, absolutely, but often I wonder if the scene was created to continue the plot, or just to deliver a zinger.
Snape begins as rather Snape-like, but slowly turns into some sort of Regency zombie, quiet and rumbling and deep-voiced and tender. He started as an uncaring bastard, but it turns out that once someone slips under his skin it all just melts away. Seriously, this is really beginning to bother me. Instead of having deep-rooted issues that would frighten off any sane witch, he somehow turns out to be this lovely Mr. Darcy after all. What makes Snape for me isn't just the cold sarcasm, the wit, the obvious power and intellect; it's also the immaturity he still possesses. That flash of heat at his core. You remember, the whole PoA thing, being denied his medal and Sirius Black being Kissed, and he goes mental. That's what made me shy away from him, and, strangely, it also made him more human and flawed and brought me right back. He's crazy. No, really. Anyone who holds on to a grudge that bitterly for that long...wow. He's just so damned complicated and downright fascinating that it won't matter what JKR reveals in book 7, whether it's good/bad/for himself/eating Lucky Charms--I'm hooked. Anyone who can fool that many people--that many talented people--has something between his ears. I also firmly believe that, were you to actually form some sort of tentative relationship with him, you would simply peel back layer upon layer of social awkwardness, bitterness, and regret. And there would not be a perfectly charming Victorian gentleman at the center.
The plot of this hg/ss story is really bothering me, as well. It seems rather arbitrary. Hermione is stolen away by a Malfoy, with little reason, and then returned. People are killed, and there are repercussions, but it all seems...inconsistent, somehow. I shouldn't judge this, honestly, because I'm not finished, but it just seems a little...uneven. The writing made me hope that it would interest me, and it does, but for the wrong reason, which is I'm now fascinated with why people write hg/ss and what they see in the pairing.
For example, I just read a scene where there is an attack on Muggles, and Snape is owled the news by one of the Death Eaters, who is taunting him. Instead of going straight to the Headmaster, for some bizarre reason Snape goes to Hermione first. Why? She has no knowledge of the attack, was not threatened by it, and will have nothing to do with the cleanup. He is, in fact, wasting time by talking to her. Valuable time. Later, she somehow is present at a meeting between the Headmaster and a high-ranking Ministry official, for no reason whatsoever. I'm just a little skeptical here. It reminds me of the ofc pitfall, which is when you become too attached to your character, and you view everything in the story warped through her lens.
Interestingly enough, nearly all of the characters speak with the same voice. A new character has just entered the scene and challenged Snape in an extremely caustic and overwordy near-Victorian manner, and the words could have come from nearly any of the other characters as well.
I am also getting sick of Hermione thinking over and over again, "It's Snape I'm kissing/touching/playing the piano for!" She's quite astonished/melancholy each time. It's all so highly emotional and overwrought that I just keep thinking about how the author is going to maintain this level of hand-wringing for the rest of the story.
The number of times a character inquires if the other characters in his/her vicinity are "all right" have to peak in the hundreds. I've just read a scene where one character asks this in a very serious manner, and then the character who was just asked, asks the other two characters in the same very serious manner. I don't know about you, but this seems extremely awkward for a conversation, even during wartime. That's one of the problems I'm seeing; plot and common sense sacrificed for the continual desire to have everyone constantly solicitous of the main characters.
And here we have the rather common plot: the Formal Exchange of Christmas Gifts. Is it ever anything other than a book for Snape? He always treasures it, too. Now that's a common refrain for both pairings. Snape actually goes out and has to weather actual human interactions in order to procure her something. It's always something she can't afford or couldn't bring herself to purchase, or some frightfully difficult to find book. Or some insanely amazing artifact. A lot of fanfic writers use this exchange as a tool. It's halfway through the school year, so the characters are bonding already, and this is the impetus that puts them over, or the affirmation that makes the characters treasure each other that much more. I haven't read many hg/ss stories where she's still a student, but I'd imagine that there are probably several that contain a secret gift exchange, with a bit of parchment attached containing the initials SS.
Hmm. I am also seeing something happening on the side...that is, Hermione is giving up her friends. Subtly. She's beginning to feel uncomfortable around them, and view herself as more of a contemporary of Snape's, instead. I wonder how many hg/ss fics have this feature. Perhaps it's something the fanfic writer does to shield Snape from further scrutiny, or to make him feel more at ease...to suggest that theirs is a unique understanding, and everyone else is an idiot.
The absolute worst, however, is the bizarre man who is pretending to be Headmaster Dumbledore. He brought them together with a project, and even forced Snape to receive a spell from Hermione by locking the door to his room and casting a spell on the door that would not let them out until Hermione cast a spell on Snape, which naturally required her to touch him. Dumbledore continually meddles, pushes them together, and is rather happy that they are becoming a couple. I definitely see Dumbledore as ruthless, sometimes, when he has to be, but I do not see him engaging in this kind of matchmaking, period. Especially after HBP. He likes people to make up their own minds, I think.
Naturally, I was comparing this story to ss/ofc stories I've read, and I started thinking about (warning! more subjective items approaching!) how I've seen more Mr. Darcy-style hg/ss stories than ofc/ss. I wonder i an analysis of hg/ss vs. ofc/ss stories would reveal other trends, such as author ages, basic plots, and Headmaster interference. Seriously, I've seen many more manipulative-Dumbledore hg/ss stories than ofc/ss stories.
I must admit, I do have a soft spot for these stories, generally; I like the rude, rich, and quite smart and fierce but secretly smitten Mr. Darcy-style hero once in a while. But I don't read Snape!fic for that, because that's not who Snape is to me.
One of the basic differences, of course, is that hg is a static canon character. Certainly she changes from one author's incarnation to the next. At her heart, however, she is still (or should be) a know-it-all bookworm, brave and smart (and annoying). An ofc can be an infinite number of characters. Spunky, feisty, nasty, vampiric...they're all out there, and therefore the approach is generally different from story to story. The hg/ss fics have a much smaller number of permutations, which have most likely been thoroughly explored at this point in fandom. That most likely explains why there are so many Dumbledore-puts-them-together hg/ss fics.
Most of the ss/ofc stories that I've read have definitely carried with them the distinct feel of modern romance novels. There are several highly popular styles, and the Snape character fits quite well into some, as long as you excise his crazier bits.
Upon further reflection I think that the reason ss/ofc and ss/hg fics generally differ is because they are based in different fantasies. After all, some fanfiction really is an exploration of fantasy; the writer wants to enter the world and play in it. They want to use the delicious characters in their own scenarios. Stories based on the ofc/ss pairing are rooted in a different romance tradition than stories based in the hg/ss pairing, and I think that the differing psychology of these two pairings explains some of the differences therein.
I'm tired and now I've lost the entire train of thought. I will most likely regret putting this up half-baked, but really, it's just vaguely-definied thoughts, and what else am I going to do with them?