Just a little Snape musing...

[valis2]

rickfan37 did her own build-a-snape here and mentioned this really excellent point:

Here’s the Urbane!Snape myth again. I don’t know, and we’re given no clue in canon. I simply don’t believe he’s a closet opera buff and spends his spare time humming along to great arias, or that he can quote Dante or Shakespeare at will.

It really made me think of something new. I've always been a bit apprehensive about fics where Snape quotes Byron and listens to Bach.

I think what really is happening is that giving Snape these "pretentious" hobbies is a way for an inexperienced writer to "shorthand" their characterization of him, because in just a sentence of quoting/playing classical music, they set him up (in their minds) as a certain sort of character, aloof, mysterious, educated, etc. It's a short-cut.

The thing is, the sort of character they're trying to develop is not canon. Snape is a pure-blood, and would most likely know very little, if anything, about the Muggle world (his matchbox comment notwithstanding). And I'm certain that most pure-bloods wouldn't want to involve themselves in any sort of Muggle-world scrutiny.

So authors who attempt this short-cut are really doing canon a disservice, when what they really need to do is discover what would make him an aloof, mysterious, and educated character in Rowling's world.

Just my little musing for the moment.

Comments

[scarah2.livejournal.com]

Sometimes he's a Muggle booze snob too.

We don't know, but I tend to figure along the lines of pureblood crumbling manor type. And any Muggle stuff he did know about, yeah, he wouldn't proclaim for the Malfoys, etc.

The matchbox thing is curious though. I always wonder if it's an oversight, or if there's anything to it.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

The matchbox thing is curious though. I always wonder if it's an oversight, or if there's anything to it.

Me too. It bothers me. I do think it was just a slip up, but then again, who knows what Rowling is going to pull out of her head...

[gmth.livejournal.com]

I actually had him listening to Billy Joel in one of my earliest fics.

*headdesks*

random tangent

[scarah2.livejournal.com]

!!!

Everyone knows it is Blue Oyster Cult!!!!

and Skid Row


Oh man butt rock Snape, I can't stop laughing! Eighteen and Life to Go!

You know what Billy Joel reminds me of? Did you ever see the sitcom Bosom Buddies w/Tom Hanks in drag??? Hahahahaha! What if Snape had to live in an apartment for women? And Ron is his roommate, because they're the only people to wear drag in canon.

o noes

[scarah2.livejournal.com]

[zoepaleologa.livejournal.com]

To paraphrase Shaw, "It is impossible for a writer to write Severus Snape without making another writer despise them."

I wrote the Dante reading Snape, who never actually quoted him, and made his discovery of Dante an integral plot point, so I feel a bit persecuted here.

My excuse is that it was my first fanfic, before I knew all the cliche potential. My present incarnation has very little in the way of Muggle interests.

I'd still argue that my Dante reading Snape sounds a lot more likely than anyone else's tango dancer, wine connoisseur or baroque harpshichord player. Simply because I can see him reading as a leisure interest more than any other. The dancing nonsense I tend to just be wryly amused by, because it is clearly the product of a Rickman fanasist. He always has a frockcoat in such fics... I rest my case.

[pen-and-umbra.livejournal.com]

The dancing nonsense I tend to just be wryly amused by, because it is clearly the product of a Rickman fanasist.

When I come across the first Snape fic where they stop to tango at a Shell station, I shall give new meaning to the term "cruel and unusual punishment". *nods*

[valis2.livejournal.com]

I wrote the Dante reading Snape, who never actually quoted him, and made his discovery of Dante an integral plot point, so I feel a bit persecuted here.

Oh, we all give into the urge in the beginning. TLS has a few cliches in it, oh yeah. Part of why I wish I'd waited a little while before I started actually writing it.

I think it's just part of the writing life...hell, just rewind a few entries on this page and you can see bizarre angst and Cat Sues, so there you go. :) Hope you don't feel too persecuted...you're a great writer, and your Dante-reading Snape was probably better than 95% of ffnet Snapes.

Oh, and I agree that Dante-reading Snape is a lot easier to envision than harpsichord player and wine-snob. Absolutely.

Though I'd love to see tango!Snape, privately. Very privately.

[rickfan37.livejournal.com]

I certainly didn't mean to cast aspersions on your stories (and do say none of my flist is included in my rant)...in Therapy you used Inferno as an integral part of the story (I think it was Therapy? Anyway, it was really convincing) and you know I'm loving BYA!
Trouble is, from every BYA and Tea with the Black Dragon (where the tango is done well), there are spawned a gazillion poor copies that belong on the less complimentary LJ communities. Stories where he throws out the odd quote in the middle of a conversation (usually half naked) and the heroine simpers at his enormous, umm, intellect. ;-)

[dphearson.livejournal.com]

Wine connoisseur?

My Snape does not drink wine, for goodness sake. He is very found of mead, ale and good bitter. Does not object to a bit of scotch, but just for medicinal purposes, mind.

But all the cigar sniffing, wine swilling, caviar stuff? No way- not on a teacher' salary!

[pen-and-umbra.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking about this a bit, ever since I wrote Snape going to see wizarding opera (a sheer self-indulgence, admittedly) and straussmonster posited that it's quite impossible for there to be such a thing as wizarding opera. She's almost got me convinced, though I do have several loopholes I can apply. ;)

The thing is, there is canon evidence of wizarding folk being rather enthusiastic about Muggle hobbies and Muggle culture. We know Dumbledore enjoys bowling and chamber music (both Muggle versions, presumably) and Nicholas Flamel was an opera enthusiast (also, presumably of Muggle opera). I don't know how pure-blooded they are, but one could assume that Dumbledore is, at least, a pure-blood -- none of his many detractors, not even Malfoy or Umbridge or such people -- have ever taken up his blood heritage as a weapon against him.

The key is that certain aspects of culture need a critical mass of viewership and a certain type of establishment -- governmental or cultural -- to be able to flourish. The wizarding population is reasonably small, so small and hell-bent on individualism that establishments such as opera and/or orchestral music as separate from their Muggle counterparts seems unlikely. Similarly, poetry and theatre are niche genres; considering how few poets manage to make a name for themselves in our Muggle world, I don't see how there could be more than a handful of wizard poets, with an audience of ten avid readers each.

To make a tangent, consider how small the Hogwarts library is, compared to larger Muggle libraries. One would assume that since Hogwarts is the highest institute of learning in Britain, it would have as comprehensive a library as any such establishment can; yet, it never strikes me larger than the library of a medium-sized town. So if these are the quantities of books the wizarding world produces for the use of academia -- and some of these books are old; magical theory doesn't get re-prints every century ;) -- one can draw parallels to how few volumes of prose and/or fiction get published.

One would be tempted to make an analogy to gay literature. As a clearly delineated minority, gay and lesbian books often have their own shelf or section in any large bookstore, but the contents are small potatoes compared to the other sections. There is poetry, but not a whole lot of it; there is fiction and science and everything with a gay bent, but the numbers are small and the quality is, shall we say, variable. Granted, wizards are more insular and do not function as part of the Muggle society like the queer nation does, but the theory of minority literature still merits consideration: it is quite natural to supplement it with literature from the majority genres. I for one know that I couldn't exist on queer literature alone. So it is quite possible that even if wizards would want to keep to their own circles, to have any sort of cultural hobbies, they need to venture outside their little insular world.

Having said all that, yeah, I do agree that the Byron (why is it always Byron, BTW? Why not some Baudelaire? Much more Snape-ish) and the Bach are shorthands, or ways with which to elevate Snape from his clearly un-aristocratic roots. Sometimes, if used well, they do fit the character; often, they're glued-on characteristics written by writers who wouldn't know chamber music if it smacked them upside the head. However, I don't necessarily agree that such things are "pretentious" by nature, but then again, I'm an opera fanatic and opera fanaticism is often construed to be the height of pretension. ;)

(I hope that made some sense. Too little sleep, agh!)

[gillieweed.livejournal.com]

Why couldn't there be a wizarding opera? They have their own musical "artistes" on the wizarding wireless, their own rock bands...just because it seems Hogwarts is culture-deprived doesn't mean there isn't a subculture of artistic wizards starving in garretts composing magical poetry and operas.
I don't know if Snape would go to one, but I see no reason for them not to exist.

[mariannelee.livejournal.com]

I so agree. Suave!Snape is utterly ridiculous.
Marianne

[valis2.livejournal.com]

When he starts to sound like Lucius, that's where to draw the line, in my book.

[privatemaladict.livejournal.com]

That's a very good point. Still, I've seen it done well. There's a certain type of story that can get away with it. And really, Urbane!Snape is a good deal better than FluffyBunny!Snape. It's a step up.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

FluffyBunny!Snape makes me want to break things. Ugh.

Though I must admit, once in a greeeeeeeeeeeeat while I like to see a bit of that...then it's right back to the Greasy Git.

[iibnf.livejournal.com]

My Snape is more likely to have an interest in pickled slugs and troll boogies.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

And Hagrid.

[sophierom.livejournal.com]

Hi! Hope you don't mind that I stopped by ... Very interesting post. As someone who has written Snape as a character who knows a bit about Muggle art music, I found myself agreeing and disagreeing with your points at the same time (what can I say, I'm not a very decisive person!).

On the one hand, I agree that "pretentious" Snape or urbane! Snape can be a lazy way to develop his character. It's also unlikely that a pureblood would grow up with access to Muggle art music, literature and fine art. On the other hand, the general pureblood prejudice could be a very good reason to have Snape reading Dante or listening to Bach. Perhaps a Bach-loving Snape is not an urbane!Snape so much as a subversive!Snape. That is, perhaps he took a secret interest in Muggle culture as a youth; just as he studied the Dark Arts, much to the disapproval of the righteous Marauders, perhaps he also dabbled in bits of Muggle culture, much to the disapproval of his family. That being said, I don't think it's very plausible to make Snape an "expert" in Muggle high culture. It would have been difficult for him to read the classics, listen to Mozart, become a Death Eater, and become a Potions master all in his youth! :-) But, Snape strikes me as someone who loves knowing things, particularly things others don't want him to know. If Muggle culture was taboo in his society, he might have sought it out secretly. Who knows ... if he secretly loved the Mudblood Lily (though I don't necessarily subscribe to this theory), why can't he have secretly loved Bach or Mozart? :-)

I'll admit that I began this post a bit defensively, thinking of my own Snape, but I've committed so many fic "sins" (my OFC's a very good example of a Mary Sue, I'm slow at updating, plot is out of control, etc., etc.) that I'm not a good example of how to develop the character well! :-) But, I have read some really interesting fics (I'm thinking of Deeble's current fic, What E'er Therein Is Promised (http://ashwinder.sycophanthex.com/viewstory.php?sid=9325)) that use Snape's knowledge of Muggle culture as part of the plot or character development. So, I guess I'm arguing that this doesn't have to be a short-cut, and in fact, if used well, it can be a way to create a more interesting character.

Again, hope you don't mind me posting here, and thanks again for such interesting thoughts! On a slightly unrelated note, I recently came across your advice to newbie fic writers ... if only you had written that 10 months ago when I started writing! :-) It's a great post.

Best,
Sophie

[valis2.livejournal.com]

If his knowledge was explained well, and fit in properly, then I'd have no problem at all. Usually I'm not an "all-or-nothing" kind of person; I was a bit strident in this entry and didn't mean to be. :)

Anything, just about anything, can work, as long as it's written well.

On a slightly unrelated note, I recently came across your advice to newbie fic writers ... if only you had written that 10 months ago when I started writing! :-) It's a great post.

Oh, wow, thank you so very much! I loved writing it, really, and the response has been terrific.

Thank you so much for your reviews! It was wonderful to log in one day and see them all. I enjoyed them!

[raggedass-road.livejournal.com]

Interesting point. Me too, I've always been off-put by fics where Snape is a classics connosieur (of literature, art, music, whatever). I mean, I understand where authors are coming from with that -- like you said, writing him with pretentious (or perhaps 'refined') tastes and hobbies in an attempt to make him an aloof and mysterious intellectual -- but it just doesn't fit him. It OVER-intellectualizes him, actually, and then the Muggle component screws it up completely. I mean really, a Death Eater with appreciations for Muggle humanities? Gimme a break.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

Yes, over-intellectualizing him is a major problem. So many fics have him speaking like he's swallowed a dictionary. I see him as of above-average intellect, definitely, very talented at potions, but not as a perfect upper-class English speaker.

via daily_snitch

[jollityfarm.livejournal.com]

Personally, I like to imagine him as being rather lower-class, for all that he tries to adopt the ways of the posh purebloods he knows. I get so annoyed sometimes by the dandyish version. Especially the one that wears silk boxer shorts and drinks absinthe or knows about wine. In fact, the latter point is what annoys me most about Severus-as-dandy. He's always a very heavy drinker in those stories and I think that'd be hugely OOC for the canon character. Someone as prissy as him, someone who gets so angry at the mere possibility of being humiliated isn't going to risk being in a situation where he would lose control of himself. The very idea that he wouldn't be able to keep himself together probably repulses him.

Mind you, I say this from the POV of being a teetotaller myself, so perhaps it's just easier for me to imagine a stressful situation in which one wouldn't reach for the bottle. But if Severus did drink alcohol, I would bet you anything it wouldn't be absinthe. I mean, it's green, for crying out loud! It's practically got a sparkler in it already.

Re: via daily_snitch

[valis2.livejournal.com]

I definitely think that he does not come from money, or perhaps he comes from a family that once had money, but does not now.

As much as I would like to see him in silk boxers...I can't imagine him wearing them, really. And the wine thing...nope, can't see that either, though who knows.

I must admit, though, I do have a weakness for the absinthe-sipping Snape...it's so lovely...so fanon...hee!

And I don't think he'd be turned off by the color green, consummate Slytherin that he is...

[jedirita.livejournal.com]

Here via Daily Snitch, and while I generally agree with the problem of "shorthanding" characterizations, I have two points to make:

1) I do not buy the claim that pureblood wizards will have nothing to do with Muggle culture. Another commentator earlier said this better than I ever could, but I do think this is one of those fanon notions that people start thinking are canon.

2) If Snape doesn't read fine Muggle literature or listen to Muggle operas (and I'm not saying he has to), then what *are* his hobbies? Me, I like to think he has an interest in geology. And cribbage.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

Hi there.

1) Yes, you are most likely correct, that there is no 100% isolation possible. I really think that most pure-blood wizards will avoid Muggle things on a general basis, but there probably is some cross-pollination somewhere.

To be honest, I was a little strident in my entry, and I never expected it to show up on daily_snitch. Normally I do not say "It is this way" or "that way"; I usually leave room for error. I wrote a long entry on fanfiction a week or two ago and I mentioned that quoting from Muggle works and such can be done, but it should be carefully considered first and carefully implemented.

2) I'm not certain if he has any room for hobbies right now...too many extracurricular activities...but anything's possible. ;) He could be a fan of curling, for all we know.

So-Not_Urbane Snape

[neotoma.livejournal.com]

The way Snape is sometimes portrayed in fanon as being well-read in classic literature, or knowledge about classical music or wines or some other marker that says 'classy' makes me laugh.

I can see Snape possibly liking chamber music or knowing wine because he was introduced to such by a mentor (Dumbledore or Lucius), but he's so obviously not a 'refined' guy in the books -- he spits in public, among other uncouth habits.

Really, if I'm writing Snape, he likes beer, he follows Quidditch, and if he likes any music, it is songs that he can sing in the pub. He might have hobbies, but they will be 'earthy' ones in keeping with his probable background -- poor but pureblooded.

Re: So-Not_Urbane Snape

[valis2.livejournal.com]

Yes, that is what I think. All one has to do is compare him to Lucius and it is immediately obvious. Plus, the little bits of info Harry dredged out of his mind are pointers to an obviously not upper-class environment.

The Snitch sent me

[evilwombat07.livejournal.com]

Actually, do the books ever actually *say* that Snape is a pureblood? If memory serves me correctly, didn't JKR step around this question in one of her interviews? I'd look it up, but it's 3:07 in the morning here and I should be sleeping. I could be completely wrong about this, in which case I apologize in advance. Anyway...Snape may well be a half-blood, so it wouldn't be necessarily difficult to get a hold of muggle music and literature (but I doubt that he would flaunt it, all things considered.

Re: The Snitch sent me

[valis2.livejournal.com]

I believe that JKR says in response that everyone in Slytherin is pureblood or something like that. Excepting Tom Riddle, I suppose, and very nearly Harry. My personal thought is that he's a pureblood, though of course I have to leave the door open a crack...we never know what JKR will do, after all.

[shiv5468.livejournal.com]

Depends on what the curriculumn for Muggle Studies is, not to mention that some authors predate the split from the Muggle world and may well be part of Wizarding culture, and that the presence of Muggleborns will import Muggle culture into the Wizarding World.

Therefore, it is perfectly possible that Snape has been exposed to and understands Muggle Literature.

And it would be difficult to discover what makes him educated in the Wizarding World because you need a shared frame of reference with your readers as to what the significance of knowing about a particular text is. If you slip in a bit of Bach, both the author and the readers know what Bach is 'about'. If you slip in the well-known Wizarding author Bertie Shilling, that means nothing without long explanation and possibly inventing original poetry / snappy quotes to put into the text.

I think that original poetry is a much greater danger than a bit of misused Byron.

[straussmonster.livejournal.com]

Especially in the climate in which Snape was at Hogwarts, I suspect it was a brave Slytherin who went and took Muggle Studies.

If you slip in a bit of Bach, both the author and the readers know what Bach is 'about'.

At least partially true, but it's still shorthand that is presently very much not present in Rowling's world, hence the original complaint about laziness, using literature/music to 'characterize' as opposed to actually trying to show it within the frame of reference of the Potterverse.

[absurdwords.livejournal.com]

I can only appreciate Muggle culture!loving Snape int iny doses. Quoting Shakespeare, knowing 15 languages, knowing everything about classical music and jazz etc. is a bit over the top.

Snape is young for a wizard, has a fulltime job, and a past which doesn't suggest that he would have been interested in Muggle culture as a youth. Being well-versed into Muggle culture is more or less impossible. There are wizards in canon who seem to have taken an interest in Muggle culture, e.g. Dumbledore and Flamel, but those two have the advantage of being very old.

Another thing which bothers me is Snape who speaks as if he's got a thesaurus shoved up his arse. He has a way with words in canon, and I don't mind people using this in fics. If an author writes Snape speaking as if he's coming right out of the 19th century: back-button. Don't get me started on the overusage of wench and chit.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

I can only appreciate Muggle culture!loving Snape int iny doses. Quoting Shakespeare, knowing 15 languages, knowing everything about classical music and jazz etc. is a bit over the top.

Amen. I once read a fic where Hermione was wandering around the castle, and she heard beautiful piano music coming from a room, and it was Snape, lost deeply in the music, playing something extremely difficult on the piano. I immediately hit the back button.

I have the thesaurus problem a little bit...I really had to remind myself to use contractions and be less wordy with Snape in the giantfic. I tried to scale back on it after I read an essay by someone online (most likely junediamanti.

[arclevel.livejournal.com]

As others have said, I don't mind my Snape having an appreciation for some aspect of Muggle culture, within reason. I can genuinely see the man enjoying poetry, for instance, as he does seem to like words (even though he has not, in fact, swallowed the thesaurus). Also, poetry seems like it would generally translate well to a wizard as it's frequently (not always) centered on universal themes and doesn't require extensive knowledge of the society it's set in, unlike many novels. I could potentially see him getting into philosophy after the fall of Voldemort, if only trying to figure out where things went so wrong. In general, I think this appreciation would be just that, not broad expertise, and I think it needs to be limited to books, which are wonderful companions for a solitary evening. And we all know that Snape has many a solitary evening (at least before Voldemort's return, and once he's done with his grading).

The biggest problem with music-connoisseur!Snape is that he's got no way to *listen* to music. Somehow I just doubt he's got a CD player, or even a phonograph, in his quarters in the dungeon (movie!Lupin's notwithstanding). I also balk at fics where he has perfect idea of how to dress to blend into the Muggle world, and of course wears something so flattering that every nearby jaw drops. If he ever goes there (and he may have legitimate reason), either he dresses badly or someone else gives him something to wear. Imagine just what Dumbledore would put him in. ;-)

[valis2.livejournal.com]

I could potentially see him getting into philosophy after the fall of Voldemort, if only trying to figure out where things went so wrong.

I don't know if I'd agree with this. I have a pretty specific view of canon!Snape and it does not involve philosophy...he is rather underdeveloped in certain areas, especially if you consider how he holds a grudge for so long. I view him as being limited in some ways. But that's just my opinion.

As far as books go...I can see him voraciously reading anything having to do with potions...or the Dark Arts...or Defense...I'm not certain that he views books with the nostalgic view that we do. I think he views them as a tool.

Of course, this is all speculation.

[amberdiceless.livejournal.com]

(Here via (http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=daily_snitch)daily_snitch (http://www.livejournal.com/community/daily_snitch/) or (http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=quickquote)quickquote (http://www.livejournal.com/community/quickquote/))

Though I do tend to think he comes from a lower-class Pureblood background, I can deal with a Snape who's interested in just about anything, Muggle or Wizard, as long as there's some sort of rationale for why and the author knows something about the subject (and it isn't taken to ridiculous extremes.)

I've seen him written as spouting Latin fluently and incessantly, for example, which I thought was a bit over-the-top; but using one carefully-chosen phrase here or there? Sure. (Docet Minervam (http://www.astronomytower.org/authors/reellifer/DM.html) is a lovely example.) Latin is the primary spellcasting language used in the books, after all, so I imagine most wizards raised in the society have at least a passing familiarity with it. Likewise, absinthe wouldn't necessarily be an unreasonable subject for a Potions Master to have investigated, and Shakespeare is so well-known throughout the Western Muggle world that I have a hard time believing most wizards don't at least know the name. My general rule of thumb is that the more widely known, useful in a non-technological way, and/or just plain nifty something is in the Muggle world, the more likely it is to have bled through into wizarding culture to some extent. And snooty purebloods are just as prone to guilty pleasures as anybody else, if not more so.

I've written Snape as being familiar with Tolkien, not because he's widely read in Muggle literature or pop culture, but because I imagine some of the underlying themes would speak to him; he probably confiscated a paperback from some Muggleborn student, picked it up in a moment of boredom, and got hooked.

I'll confess I do fall prey to the Severus-the-walking-thesaurus syndrome at times. It's fun to haul out all those long pretentious words I never get to use and let him play with them, darn it. :) And as much as he seems to crave respect and recognition, I could see him working hard to shed the stigma of his working-class background in any way he could, including building an impressive vocabulary. So even if it isn't altogether canonical, I don't mind so much seeing him written that way.

Frankly, I often find canon!Snape somewhat bland compared to the aggregated fanon version. He occasionally leaves me scratching my head, wondering how we've managed to extrapolate such a fascinating personality from, well...a surly, spiteful wanker stuck in a state of arrested adolescence. :)

[valis2.livejournal.com]

In the fanfiction guide I wrote an entire passage on the subject of quoting/using languages beside English in HP fics, and honestly, when it comes down to it, it is up to the author to include it or not. Whether it works or not depends on how well they've integrated it. It also depends on how believeable it is. Honestly, I didn't mean for this to get linked to d_s, though it's nice that it did...I was just ranting a little bit to the poor flist about it. The fanfic guide is a much better gauge. I am not steadfastly opposed entirely, I just need for it to work really, really well.

And the thesaurus problem...I have to constantly remind myself to tone his language down...I always want to make him sound extremely wordy...it's hard! :)

And you are absolutely correct...I like my canon!Snape with a touch of fanon!Snape or he's just a bit too limited.

[alyndra]

Regarding matchboxes, we ought to note that the very first Tranfiguration lesson is turning matches into needles.

Of course, on the other hand, Arthur seems to have no idea of what matches are actually used for.

*shrugs and slinks back into obscurity*

[valis2.livejournal.com]

Exactly. Very confusing.