Just a little Snape musing...

[valis2]

rickfan37 did her own build-a-snape here and mentioned this really excellent point:

Here’s the Urbane!Snape myth again. I don’t know, and we’re given no clue in canon. I simply don’t believe he’s a closet opera buff and spends his spare time humming along to great arias, or that he can quote Dante or Shakespeare at will.

It really made me think of something new. I've always been a bit apprehensive about fics where Snape quotes Byron and listens to Bach.

I think what really is happening is that giving Snape these "pretentious" hobbies is a way for an inexperienced writer to "shorthand" their characterization of him, because in just a sentence of quoting/playing classical music, they set him up (in their minds) as a certain sort of character, aloof, mysterious, educated, etc. It's a short-cut.

The thing is, the sort of character they're trying to develop is not canon. Snape is a pure-blood, and would most likely know very little, if anything, about the Muggle world (his matchbox comment notwithstanding). And I'm certain that most pure-bloods wouldn't want to involve themselves in any sort of Muggle-world scrutiny.

So authors who attempt this short-cut are really doing canon a disservice, when what they really need to do is discover what would make him an aloof, mysterious, and educated character in Rowling's world.

Just my little musing for the moment.

Comments

[pen-and-umbra.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking about this a bit, ever since I wrote Snape going to see wizarding opera (a sheer self-indulgence, admittedly) and straussmonster posited that it's quite impossible for there to be such a thing as wizarding opera. She's almost got me convinced, though I do have several loopholes I can apply. ;)

The thing is, there is canon evidence of wizarding folk being rather enthusiastic about Muggle hobbies and Muggle culture. We know Dumbledore enjoys bowling and chamber music (both Muggle versions, presumably) and Nicholas Flamel was an opera enthusiast (also, presumably of Muggle opera). I don't know how pure-blooded they are, but one could assume that Dumbledore is, at least, a pure-blood -- none of his many detractors, not even Malfoy or Umbridge or such people -- have ever taken up his blood heritage as a weapon against him.

The key is that certain aspects of culture need a critical mass of viewership and a certain type of establishment -- governmental or cultural -- to be able to flourish. The wizarding population is reasonably small, so small and hell-bent on individualism that establishments such as opera and/or orchestral music as separate from their Muggle counterparts seems unlikely. Similarly, poetry and theatre are niche genres; considering how few poets manage to make a name for themselves in our Muggle world, I don't see how there could be more than a handful of wizard poets, with an audience of ten avid readers each.

To make a tangent, consider how small the Hogwarts library is, compared to larger Muggle libraries. One would assume that since Hogwarts is the highest institute of learning in Britain, it would have as comprehensive a library as any such establishment can; yet, it never strikes me larger than the library of a medium-sized town. So if these are the quantities of books the wizarding world produces for the use of academia -- and some of these books are old; magical theory doesn't get re-prints every century ;) -- one can draw parallels to how few volumes of prose and/or fiction get published.

One would be tempted to make an analogy to gay literature. As a clearly delineated minority, gay and lesbian books often have their own shelf or section in any large bookstore, but the contents are small potatoes compared to the other sections. There is poetry, but not a whole lot of it; there is fiction and science and everything with a gay bent, but the numbers are small and the quality is, shall we say, variable. Granted, wizards are more insular and do not function as part of the Muggle society like the queer nation does, but the theory of minority literature still merits consideration: it is quite natural to supplement it with literature from the majority genres. I for one know that I couldn't exist on queer literature alone. So it is quite possible that even if wizards would want to keep to their own circles, to have any sort of cultural hobbies, they need to venture outside their little insular world.

Having said all that, yeah, I do agree that the Byron (why is it always Byron, BTW? Why not some Baudelaire? Much more Snape-ish) and the Bach are shorthands, or ways with which to elevate Snape from his clearly un-aristocratic roots. Sometimes, if used well, they do fit the character; often, they're glued-on characteristics written by writers who wouldn't know chamber music if it smacked them upside the head. However, I don't necessarily agree that such things are "pretentious" by nature, but then again, I'm an opera fanatic and opera fanaticism is often construed to be the height of pretension. ;)

(I hope that made some sense. Too little sleep, agh!)

[gillieweed.livejournal.com]

Why couldn't there be a wizarding opera? They have their own musical "artistes" on the wizarding wireless, their own rock bands...just because it seems Hogwarts is culture-deprived doesn't mean there isn't a subculture of artistic wizards starving in garretts composing magical poetry and operas.
I don't know if Snape would go to one, but I see no reason for them not to exist.

[pen-and-umbra.livejournal.com]

I'm now completely ripping off what straussmonster explained (and probably mangling her far greater factual knowledge while I'm at it), but to paraphrase what I've discussed with her:

Opera is an art form that arises in exactly two sorts of circumstances: court and urban society. All of Britain has one wizarding village, so it's not like the wizarding world has any sort of urban culture to speak of; the British wizarding world functions under one massively bureaucratic system and there has been no mention of any sort of wizarding royalty. No all-powerful mayors, no kings, no organised courts.

The thing is, I could believe wizarding theatre. It can be accomplished by small, travelling troupes with little or no financial backing save for what they get from selling tickets. Opera, however, is an extremely non-individualistic art form (and according to JKR, wizards are about as individualistic a folk as one can get) that takes an awful lot of organisation, resources, and labour force to kick off the ground. Opera as we understand it today is aesthetically rich, extremely formalised, resistant to change, and historically and even today a very stage-oriented form of art (i.e. not a travelling genre).

So, in summary, while the wizarding world would have the necessary singers, etc. it's the inception of the art form that is unlikely in the first place. (I have counter-arguments against this, e.g. what if wizarding opera is an off-shoot of Muggle opera, but they are rather specious at best.) If it never gets kicked off the ground, it's not happening, even if the necessary building blocks could be scrounged together. A pile of bricks does not a house make, IOW.

[gillieweed.livejournal.com]

Nah, wizarding culture isn't that far removed from the muggle world. It's entirely possible that there's some tragic operas about ill-fated affairs between a muggle and a wizard or some operatic retelling of events leading to the WW going underground. Opera's courtly origins are irrelevant really, there's no reason why the art form coudn't be adapted. Lot's of small cities have opera companies--granted not very good ones--but I don't see why London, while not a completely wizarding city couldn't manage to cobble together a troupe or for that matter even Hogsmeade come up with a small regional company that 'magics up' muggle opera for some high-brow entertainment.

[pen-and-umbra.livejournal.com]

Actually, opera's courtly origins have everything to do with it. Because of its history and how it has turned out, of all available music forms, it is by far the most resistant to change and individual forces of change. It's stayed virtually unchangeable since the 1600s; you could've gone to the opening show of the opera house in Venice in 1637 and the aesthetics would've been exactly the same as they are in today's opera (though let's not go on the obvious Wagner tangent).

So, I maintain that without sufficient critical mass and without a few happy coincidences and some hefty figures in play, it ain't going to happen. Sure, I can see some gee-whizz impresario kid taking the Muggle concept and running off with it. But I'm talking more about opera as an institution, not as a one-off curiosity. To have an opera culture worthy of fans and not just curious culture-starved people, one needs more than a nutter with delusions of grandieur.

To give an example I've seen a student showing of La Boheme in New Haven, CT (pop. 100,000+). It was a one-off and AFAIK, New Haven does not have a steady opera company; opera fans travel to NY or Boston for their opera fixes. That was it for New Haven.

Does New Haven have an opera institution? No.

Consequently, would Nicholas Flamel or anyone call himself an opera fan if he went to see one odd wizarding opera in Hogsmeade every three years? Na.

So opera as a curiosity, sure. Opera as an institution? A completely different ballgame, and no. Show me a village the size of Hogsmeade (pop. surely less than 100,000) that maintains an opera company and I'm sold on the point. I live in a city of 500,000 people and we have a rather excellent opera company; it would stand to reason that to have an opera as a cultural institution, the critical mass is somewhere between New Haven and Helsinki.

[straussmonster.livejournal.com]

you could've gone to the opening show of the opera house in Venice in 1637 and the aesthetics would've been exactly the same as they are in today's opera

I hate to be categorial, but no. The aesthetics of opera are very dependent upon situation, but it's unproductive to talk about that in the abstract. Modern operagoers would look at a performance of a Cavalli opera in Venice from the 17th century and go "What the hell is that?". That's part of why it's taken so long to get into understanding opera seria (and a book like Kerman's Opera as Drama just dismisses it as bad art.) French and Italian Baroque operas have very different aesthetics precisely because of different situations.

The rest of that is pretty much what I would argue, though. :)

[pen-and-umbra.livejournal.com]

A-ha! I now know one book I can point at and say "wrrronggg!" Thank you for the correction. (Also, quite possible what we mean with "aesthetics" is different, considering I approach it from a layman's background. I understood only about 2% of what Downing A. Thomas is trying to tell me, after all.)

[pen-and-umbra.livejournal.com]

* grandeur. Also, abysmal punctuation. Gah. 1 a.m., no coffee left in the pot...

[gillieweed.livejournal.com]

It's stayed virtually unchangeable since the 1600s; you could've gone to the opening show of the opera house in Venice in 1637 and the aesthetics would've been exactly the same as they are in today's opera

Which sounds astonishingly like the WW, doesn't it?

To have an opera culture worthy of fans and not just curious culture-starved people, one needs more than a nutter with delusions of grandieur.

Like Mozart.
*ducks* Yes, he was a genius, but like most geniuses he was a nutter.

I think everyone's working at cross purposes here. "Wizard Opera" doesn't have to be an entity into itself any more than "wizard candy" or "wizard chess" is. When I think of wizard opera or even wizard theater I think of an offshoot (for want of a better word) of the non-wizard tradition of the same. Which is why the origin really doesn't matter. What matters is what the culture ultimately chose to do with it. Do they just attend muggle opera? Do witches and wizards perform muggle operas 'by the book'? Do they just throw in a few whiz-bang special effects (imagine what wizards could do with Wagner!) or, what I'd guess, did opera evolve, even just a little bit, into something slightly different in the WW than what you'd expect to see at the Met.

You know what the weirdest thing about this entire conversation is? I absolute despise opera. I enjoy many types of music, classical and modern, but was raised with opera almost 24hrs a day, 7days a week screeching through my childhood home. Both my parents were opera lovers and my mother was a fangurl of Beverly Sills. It still sounds to me like someone backing over the cat. And this from someone who lives with a trumpeter.

[lady_songsmith]

On the other hand, it seems that at various points in wizarding history they have been more integrated in Muggle society. We know that Slytherin wasn't keen on Muggleborns attending Hogwarts, so the isolationist tendencies go pretty far back, but we also have grandfather clocks and pocketwatches, wireless radios, trains... What Muggle time-period does the description of Diagon Alley evoke? Or other wizarding locales we've seen? So it's entirely possible that wizards have been exposed to and enjoy opera, chamber music, and the like.

Whether the wizarding world can support opera houses is debatable. On the one hand, if Hogsmeade is the only all-wizarding village in Britain, and it's pretty small, there's an argument to be made that there isn't a critical mass. On the other hand, wizards do live in mixed-locales, and can hide their own establishments in along with the Muggle buildings. (Leaky Cauldron, MoM) And from the World Cup, presumably the actual wizarding population is fairly large.

[sophie-spence.livejournal.com]

Show me a village the size of Hogsmeade (pop. surely less than 100,000) that maintains an opera company and I'm sold on the point.

*raises a timid hand*
Our Santa Fe Opera was founded in 1957 and is still going strong in a town with a population of 64,700 (2004 est). SFO has a first-class reputation and an amazing Opera House (http://www.santafeopera.org/). The season is short, however, about eight weeks every summer, five operas a season, and many of the audience members come to Santa Fe from Elsewhere for the season - so perhaps this doesn't meet your criteria?

[straussmonster.livejournal.com]

Part of why smaller cities have opera companies is that they would get the big work from Vienna or Berlin after it was debuted in the big house. (And the limited resources of these companies becomes an increasing problem in the 19th century and into the 20th; Rossini complains about poor treatments of his works and so does R. Strauss). But the works were only done in the first place because of the big centers, which could provide the financial and material (sets, dancers, musicians, etc.) to put on the work enough that it could be financially profitable. One of the main ways that operas were spread out into the countryside was not through actual performance, but through piano reductions and arrangements of the big tunes.

Some kinds of opera travel better than others, as well. Italy has several major theatres but no one dominant center, and Italian opera tends to be singer-oriented; the singers would travel in a company, using the same costumes for any number of roles. This traveling also fueled the intense drive for 'new' works, which is why there are so many reworkings/pastiche in the 18th/early 19th century rep. French opera does not travel until the 19th century, when it becomes the biggest thing in London; only because there are impresarios with a lot of money to lure across the singers and shill out for the decor. Opera is an institutional art even more dependent on fixed places than the theatre, and that's what the WW seems to lack.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

Hmm...I realize that I didn't put pretentious in quotes...oops. *runs off and fixes* Sorry about that. I only meant that they are viewed as pretentious by a large portion of society.

I have always wondered about the presence of literature in wizarding society, especially considering that there are no artistic classes mentioned in the course schedules at Hogwarts. Obviously the students are expected to be literate, but not much else happens in that arena, unless you consider the valentines Lockhart coordinated. Hence my determination not to allude to any literature in my fic.

I used to read Mummy fic a lot, and at first I thought it was interesting if the characters to spouted classic literature, until I really thought about it. What sort of books would a desert-dwelling native own? And that's what set the stage for my Byron-spouting-Snape snobbery.

Though he definitely is a bit of a poet, in my mind, considering his opening day speech in Potions, and his little potion riddle in PS/SS.

That was a really great comment, and I was fascinated, btw.

[pen-and-umbra.livejournal.com]

I only meant that they are viewed as pretentious by a large portion of society.

Oh, quite so, and I very well understand such a view; when observed objectively, opera is an extremely ridiculous genre with formalisms and structures that are either incomprehensible or utterly laughable unless one takes them in the proper context of the art form. Very much an acquired taste, in other words. And certainly, a lot of people invoke opera or classical music when they wish to appear more educated/sophisticated than they feel they are, hence the unfortunate reputation. Why this is so, I have no clue. I'm just there for the music. :)

Obviously the students are expected to be literate, but not much else happens in that arena, unless you consider the valentines Lockhart coordinated.

A very good point, and I could even construe the lack of arts classes at Hogwarts to speak on behalf of wizards being forced to seek their cultural fix in the Muggle arts. The wizarding folk are taught to be consumers of literature and music and such things, but outside Lockhart's valentines and singing the school song at the start-of-term feast, there is not much encouragement to become a producer of art. Not that education in such matters is imperative to make artists -- one can be self-taught, after all -- but it certainly seems to discourage seeking careers in the arts.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

it certainly seems to discourage seeking careers in the arts.

Yes, all of the occupations we've seen so far seem to be rather prosaic...Ministry official, teacher, Dark Lord...

I know we're not getting the entire schedule, but I haven't seen a glimpse of arts, just about. And there doesn't seem to be an outlet for crafts, or handcrafted spells/goods...they're either amusingly charmed items that embarrass or hurt people (Dark Magic items at Grimmauld) or they're practical (brooms, Molly's clock, etc.). Or they're mass produced by companies, though perhaps "mass" isn't quite the best word. Actually, the entire wizarding economy fascinates me, because it's so small. Anyway, short of shops, we don't hear of any private money changing hands, probably because of Harry's pov, though.

I'm rambling, sorry.

[pen-and-umbra.livejournal.com]

Actually, the entire wizarding economy fascinates me, because it's so small.

Ditto. Hence, I was all a-squee over the details of the broom industry in Quidditch Through The Ages.

[straussmonster.livejournal.com]

I have always wondered about the presence of literature in wizarding society, especially considering that there are no artistic classes mentioned in the course schedules at Hogwarts.

It seems to exist--there's a book industry, there's a play in French mentioned in one of the schoolbooks, but unless it's one of those things that is really there but we don't see it, the arts (hell, the humanities in general!) aren't getting any time at Hogwarts at all.

I waver over whether that's a deliberate omission or not, Doyle vs. Watson. It seems thematically meaningful. People who can do magic and make pictures move might be less interested in developing different kinds of artistic expression, since they can copy real life so accurately. Are wizards so caught up in the magic of magic that they forget about other things in life? Is that why it's notable that Flamel and Dumbledore are fans of genres of music with extremely strong connotations about their personalities/interests? I wish I knew.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

It is fascinating that the most "creative" thing we've seen in the written word has come from Snape (his puzzle at the end of PS/SS).

It does seem like Hogwarts is deficient in the arts. Perhaps Beauxbatons is more arts-oriented. Perhaps magic is already such a creative and artistic art in itself that they feel no pull to express themselves in any other way, as you posit. Fascinating.

It is interesting that the sing-a-long of the Hogwarts theme is so individualistic, and that each singer sings their own rendition.

[gillieweed.livejournal.com]

Sadly, the more I read into the books the more I see the mention of Flamel's and Dumbledore's musical tastes as only being mentioned to show how quaint and amusing they are. "Oh, they like opera wink wink." The implication being that "we" as in "Harry" are very much cooler than Dumbledore and Flamel becuase "we" meaning "Harry" know that opera is very much uncool and old.

[straussmonster.livejournal.com]

That's possible. Dumbledore being into chamber music seems to my highly selective reading as reinforcing (for those in the know) his status as interested in Muggle culture, but a fan of one of the most refined kinds of classical music. Chamber music has always had some connotations of connaiseurship, something listened to in private instead of public (chamber instead of public paying concert hall), and as being the most 'intellectual' form of classical music. That's my read, at least.

[arclevel.livejournal.com]

I once commented on this fairly extensively, and unfortunately, I can't begin to remember where. I suppose this is why I need to occasionally post on my journal rather than simply wandering in to everyone else's conversations. Anyway, my theory is that the arts are largely undervalued in the wizarding world because the day to day practice of magic itself stunts the imagination -- there's not many places left to go. There's a book industry, yes, but notably, we have never seen *any* wizard, not even Hermione, reading a novel. The only fiction mentioned is one French play and a comic book Ron used to read. Art has more to do with *actually* capturing a person or scene than with the aesthetics of such; who cares if your ocean is the right shade when the waves are going to be crashing against the rocks, or if your subject's eyes reflect her personality when she's going to be chatting with you? There is music, but I have a hard time believing there's much *good* music if only based on the size of the society -- look at how much of what we have is awful! Also, that has to take into account the fact that Muggle influences come in, but are slow to catch on; Muggle music has changed so much within the last century that it's hard to say what most wizards, even those relatively in touch with Muggle society, know about it. If they catch a few jazz pieces, some Elvis, and a Beatles tune, that will hardly prepare them to listen to Evanescence, for example. All of which makes it rather stunning to me that there are rock bands at *all* in the wizarding world, though there's clearly at least one. Do we happen to know if any or all of the Weird Sisters are Muggle-born?

And switching from one complete tangent to another, I was a hideous writer when I was eleven, and I was better than most of my classmates. Are the poor professors attempting to teach composition skills along with their subjects? They certainly don't seem to be, but I expect McGonagall and Snape, at least, would go insane attempting to read misspelled, badly worded, transition-less essays from all seven years' worth of their classes. We'll also hope that the non-fiction writers learn these things at some point.

[straussmonster.livejournal.com]

my theory is that the arts are largely undervalued in the wizarding world because the day to day practice of magic itself stunts the imagination

I've plugged that idea myself, in the sense of wizards not seeing the *point* of art when they can reproduce real life. They wouldn't be impressed with the machines of French Baroque opera that are so wonderful when you're in tune with their aesthetic. :)

I can see the Weird Sisters as Muggle-born, though. But again, I wonder whether this is all a meaningful omission or not. I think so...

[rickfan37.livejournal.com]

often, they're glued-on characteristics written by writers who wouldn't know chamber music if it smacked them upside the head.
Exactly, and that's the problem. While I personally don't see him in that way, it certainly doesn't gall me when I read it in other's work if it's well done, and they obviously know what they're talking about. Sadly, that's rarely the case.

[pen-and-umbra.livejournal.com]

Ah, yes, very true indeed. Same thing with me and kinks -- whenever non-con Dark Revels rapefics are labelled as BDSM, I shall rail, because the author obviously doesn't know what s/he is talking about.