Thinking glum thoughts about Snape

[valis2]

When I reread the series awhile ago, I remember laughing because Ron sometimes inadvertantly says something funny/clueless-sounding that turns out to be true later. (Like Moaning Myrtle being the victim in CoS.)

Well, one of those moments made me freak out, because he says (in PoA? can't remember) something like this when Hermione is defending Snape:

"Poisonous toadstools can't change their spots," Ron said sagely.

It's still bothering me. It's the sagely tag that made me first pause. It gets me everytime.

I really do wonder what she has planned for Snape.

Comments

[snapesforte.livejournal.com]

I noticed that one, as well. Still, nothing has eventuated from 'die, Ron, die!' yet (ootp) - though I suppose he came very close to it in H-BP.

[zoepaleologa.livejournal.com]

FWIW, I sometimes wonder if Snape is going to be Dementor kissed...

Here's why:

JKR says he has a patronus but won't say what it is. That means it will emerge in book 7.

Breeding Dementors presaged but never used in book 6 - therefore expect a nasty Dementor scene in book 7.

He threatened Sirius with this in book 3. What goes round, comes round.

JKR "loves doing nasty things to him". He's a "deeply horrible person".

I think he is going to come to a very sticky end indeed. That's the nastiest end in canon.

I'm not cast iron certain about that, mind, it is just a thought that occurred to me on third read.

[rickfan37.livejournal.com]

Yes, and we haven't yet witnessed a Kiss first-hand (have we?)
Oh dear.
I'm all depressed now, thanks to you two.

[logospilgrim.livejournal.com]

My dearest Valis,

I think Ron's remark referred to Snape's Dark Mark (a striking parallel can be found in Moodie's words during the "grey nightgown" scene in GoF), and had nothing to do with Snape's ultimate fate.

When I reread Half-Blood Prince, Snape's nobility (wounded as it is by his natural defects and sins) was even more obvious than it was the first time I read the book. He may a "deeply unpleasant person," but this does not preclude redemption. One of Christ's disciples once asked Him if they should summon fire from the sky to destroy the inhabitants of a city where they had not been welcomed...

One of the scenes I shall mention during the Snape panel at which I shall be speaking is the one where he heals Draco Malfoy. Can anyone read the following sentence and still wonder where Snape's loyalties lie? "You need the hospital wing. There may be a certain amount of scarring, but if you take dittany right away, we might avoid even that... come..."

Since when is a foul Death Eater, one who spurns all goodness and truth, concerned about scarring? Imagine Voldemort sitting next to him: "Oh, dittany... That is perfect, Severus. We would not want the boy to be scarred for life."

I shall be posting the entire panel presentation on my journal after I return home from Salem...

[melora98.livejournal.com]

I believe Snape will die in bk. 7, yes. And yes, of course he's nasty. But he's still on the good side. What Ron meant was true (Snape is a bastard and always will be) but what keeps me sane about all of this is that it's JUST TOO OBVIOUS for Snape to actually be working for the bad side. I mean, JKR wouldn't do all this set-up, all this DD faith in Snape despite everything, all this Snape-saving-Harry-all-the-time stuff underneath all the nastiness if he was really, truly, utterly bad.

Do not fear. Our Snape may die (woe) but he will do so having done SOMEthing for the good side. Something ultimately crucial to Harry's success. And like everything else he does, it will be bound up in deceit and questionable behavior, and it will remain for us all to really wonder whose side he was ever really on. But that's what faith is all about, right? :-)

[straussmonster.livejournal.com]

Lucius Malfoy is a fairly foul person, canonically, and even he has some modicum (or even strong feelings) of care for his family. There's nothing that says being a Death Eater means you can't have attachments to other people. They just do heinous things in other parts of their lives, particularly in their elevation of self-interest. And one can certainly argue that Snape has a very strong self-interest in monitoring Draco's behavior, at least at that time in the book.

[logospilgrim.livejournal.com]

I still do not believe that, regardless of any "attachment" a Death Eater might have to "close ones" (I would argue that self-interest and true devotion are a contradiction in terms), what Snape did for Draco in that scene was motivated by anything less than authentic dedication to Goodness.

Here I shall simply mention John Granger's site, and commend his words presenting Snape as an image of the Great Physician.

[straussmonster.livejournal.com]

Well, we have a better chance of finding out by the end of the next book, at least. There's no canon to prove that what Snape did was genuine devotion, just as there's no canon to solidly prove that he's ever really believed in the cause of the White Hats. He might get points on authenticity (which modern society seems to attribute to anyone abrasive, at times) but Snape is way at the bottom on sincerity in the series--if you want him to be good. If Snape genuinely is sincere in his scorn for Harry, his elevation of his own ego and criteria of judgement, and his attachment to past grievances and hatred...it doesn't look too good for him.

Given some of the other hilarious things that John Granger has put out there, including some very sudden (and funny) shipping backpedaling, I'll pass. I'm guessing thematically at a much higher success rate than he is.

[logospilgrim.livejournal.com]

I hope I have not offended you with my argumentativeness. Sleep is eluding me and I fear that I am letting my fondness for the professor to dictate my behavior.

All I can say at this point is that I believe he will be redeemed (truthfully I believe he already has been), and it is not possible for me to think otherwise, for various reasons; I have already rambled upon this matter at length. He is scornful, and bitter, and selfish, but... I still see his goodness. If the absence of scorn, bitterness and selfishness were a requirement for goodness (or perfection), there would be no hope for anyone.

I can only... hope.

[chrysantza.livejournal.com]

I think he is going to come to a very sticky end indeed. That's the nastiest end in canon.

And the whining from the Harmoanians will be as NOTHING compared to the decibel level when Snape buys it in a horrible manner...

[zoepaleologa.livejournal.com]

*rubs hands in glee*

Can't wait!!! I'll make f_wank my default home page.

[lady-branwyn.livejournal.com]

Here is my husband's theory about Snape (which may or may not be very original) --
Dumbledore's shriveled up hand is the symptom of a fatal curse or disease that is slowly killing him. He knows this, and Snape (being the student of the Dark Arts) knows this when he kills him. Snape has attached himself to the Malfoys because that is a way to get close enough to Voldemort to kill him.
So, what do you think?

[straussmonster.livejournal.com]

I'm a hearty soul.

Pre-OotP, I would have bet fairly solidly on a general redemption plot for Snape. However, that was also predicated upon thinking that, given the inception of a war, he would come to grips with his own lack of maturity and let go of some past grievances for the greater good. Two books later, it doesn't look like that's happened.

Which is why I currently see his story going in a negative direction rather than a positive one. He made some big mistakes (joining a rough parallel to the SS is a big one) and was granted major chances to make amends and change *himself*...but he holds his own ideas of how things are and his past grudges too dear, leading to a fall. It's compelling, and most of the fandom runs screaming in the other direction--which is why I like that as the story.

[blackpearl777.livejournal.com]

I can fully understand the identification that you feel with Severus Snape. I have that same sense of identification. I have that same feeling that he is being completely misunderstood and wrongly judged.

But there is also adequate evidence that would support his actions as altruistic if seen from a POV other than that of Harry Potter. I think that much much more has to be revealed, and that he will be vindicated somehow in book seven. ;)

[valis2.livejournal.com]

Too true, but it really made me wonder.

Though it may be that his "spots" are merely a desire to help himself ahead, no matter what.

[snapesforte.livejournal.com]

Though it may be that his "spots" are merely a desire to help himself ahead, no matter what.

That's the way I see them.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

I think he is going to come to a very sticky end indeed.

I have thought that as well. That's the beauty of her mystery writing...you just never know exactly what's going to happen. I have been teetering between the two major possibilities of Good!Snape/Evil!Snape, while there are really four to consider...For Himself!Snape and Evil but Redeemed at the Last Possible Moment!Snape.

I remember that after I read GoF the first time I thought that Evil but Redeemed Snape would be the way it would happen. And even though I am waffling between Good and Evil!Snape right now, there is still this annoying voice in the back of my head that says, Evil but Redeemed Snape seems the most Rowling way to do things.

Though what do I know! He may end up herding goats in Albania.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

I really am very excited to read the presentation and hear your thoughts in their entirety (though I have heard some of them, because you have posted extensively on them since HBP).

I have waffled back and forth, but the main thought I have is that he is going to redeem himself, perhaps at the very last possible moment, before a noble death. I'm not certain, but it seems like it might be a JKR thing to do. Then again, she does like to twist things about and figure out ways to surprise even the most diehard fan...

[valis2.livejournal.com]

After OotP I remember being very certain that Dumbledore was going to die in book 6. Incredibly certain.

Now, I'm really thinking that she might do it to Snape in book 7. I'm really wondering what's going to happen.

I keep thinking that we're finally going to find out that he's been following himself the entire time...not good, not bad, simply ambitious and self-absorbed. But I still have a feeling that we might see one last bit of noble behaviour at the very end, something that turns the tide.

Then again, when has JKR ever taken the path we want her to take? *grins*

[valis2.livejournal.com]

The thing is...I have this thought that, no matter what, Ddore would not want anyone to kill anyone else. I think that he didn't really know what Snape had promised to do. I'm not certain that Snape is a "deep cover" agent, simply because he's now murdered someone, and because JKR's interviews have always hinted that he's not very nice, and she seemed to be saying in the Mugglenet interview that the deep cover theory isn't correct, though that is conjecture on my part.

I think Snape attached himself to the Malfoys because he genuinely cares for them in some way, or sees them as a way to increase his own standing. Though it could definitely be that it helps him get closer to Voldemort.

And I also think Narcissa played him beautifully in the Spinner's End chapter.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

Hmmm...if you squint, one of the spots is vaguely spider-like...*grins*

[melora98.livejournal.com]

Then again, when has JKR ever taken the path we want her to take?

Very good point! *anticipates and crosses fingers*

[straussmonster.livejournal.com]

I'd bet on Out For Himself Snape above all other things, as well.

It just comes to mind that this may somehow connect to one of Rowling's preferred modes for treating Snape: she makes him ridiculous. You know, for all the fanon presentation of Snape as dignified, icy, and in control...he sure ends up screaming, raving, and looking like a general dork an awful amount of the time. Leaving Hogwarts running, pursued by a furious hippogryff, having just re-proclaimed his schooldays title? It fits, somehow...

[valis2.livejournal.com]

Heh...yes, he's such a study in contrasts! A nasty, dark magic-lovin' man, and yet an angry little boy.

Leaving Hogwarts running, pursued by a furious hippogryff, having just re-proclaimed his schooldays title? It fits, somehow...

lol! I remember reading it and thinking how pissed he must have been to make such an undignified retreat. I mean, he goes through all the hassle of killing Ddore and showing up Harry, and then that awful beast ruins his dramatic exit...

[gillieweed.livejournal.com]

Though what do I know! He may end up herding goats in Albania.

This now gets my vote!

I've written reams on this, mostly on HP4GU before it turned nutty and mostly along the lines on out-for-himself!Snape and whatever-it-takes-to-get-the-job-done!Snape. Snape will meet whatever end JKR wants him to meet but there's only one that'll get me to hurl my book at the wall in disgust, and that's so-redeemed-it's-sickening!Snape. If a group hug is so much hinted at, I'm out of there. I used to think I'd slam the book shut for good if Snape got done in via the horribly clichéd fandom scenario of hurling himself in front of Harry to save him from a killing curse--but actually I'd kind of like that now--final proof that Harry is so completely inept that his incompetence has led to people having to die because he can't block his own death-rays.
I think Snape would get a vague satisfaction from that in whatever afterlife awaited him and would quite enjoy haunting Harry with it over and over and over...

[jen-deben.livejournal.com]

When Dumbledore sent Snape back to the Death Eaters, he must have known that Snape would end up killing people on Voldemort's orders. That's what Death Eaters do. So although Dumbledore probably doesn't want anyone to kill anyone else, I think he's resigned to the fact that in a time of war, it will happen, and it will occasionally happen as a direct result of Dumbledore's own orders.

The old man was never as squeaky-clean as he gave the impression of being. Remember how many times in the books Dumbledore told bald-faced lies. Loveable Dumbles could be very ruthless when there was a need for him to be.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

Ooooh, Snape haunting Harry! Now that's a great idea for a fic.

I do really think she's got some sort of redemption planned, based on that one chat she had ages ago with someone about it...