Thinking about hg/ss vs. ofc/ss...

[valis2]

...the ultimate smackdown!

Yet again, flist, you have to listen to my rather ill-organized and highly subjective musings on the subject.

Disclaimer: I have read very little hg/ss. I haven't read a lot of ofc/ss. Honestly, this is just me wandering about and reading one fic and having some thoughts about it, and trying to use that fic to extrapolate further about hg/ss fics in general. It isn't scientifically based, and it's merely for my own amusement, and I'm aware that it's flawed reasoning.

I was wandering around (er, okay, looking for h/c), and rexluscus rec'd a rather angsty rec list. I've read (and bookmarked for the List) many of the fics on it, but there were some that I've never seen, and of course I had to check them out.

The thing is, I've never really been into the hg/ss pairing. As most of you know, I'm really not into the kids at all. The few adult/kid pairing stories I've read usually take place long after the "kid" has left Hogwarts. I'm especially not interested in hg/ss because (and this is my personal opinion! Yes! Utterly subjective!) a) I do not really like Hermione much as a character, b) I get a bit queasy when the lines of student/teacher are crossed, such as they are when hg/ss takes place while hg is still attending Hogwarts, and c) I much prefer Snape having a relationship with an adult character, preferably someone who has lived a little...someone who will make a good partner for him, someone with experience.

So one of the fics on the Angsty List happens to be hg/ss...and, being the crazy h/c addict that I am, I felt compelled to read it. Thank goodness Hermione is at least a teacher in this fic.

The author is clearly intelligent, well-read, very into philosophy and literature. The characters are given to long, emotional thought patterns.

But I'm seeing a few things here that make me wonder. The language is well-developed, mostly, except for the author's continual attempts to shoehorn British words into her mix, sometimes incorrectly (and if I notice it, that's bad). But that's where I began to really notice that the language is very...Regency romance. The long, emotional passages are filled with attempts to figure out the other person. The dialogue, which is rather good except for its Regency flavor, is also filled with...what I like to think of as "trump scenes".

What's a trump scene/trump line? A trump scene is a scene the author thought was so clever and/or fabulous that they had to warp the logical procession of plot to push it in. I mean, hell, I've done it, definitely. The thing is, if you're going to do something like that, you really need to smooth things over, and make it fit properly. I've seen it in anime, where the artists really wanted to do this cool scene with water snakes/red zombies/Macgyver; in fact, I think in some anime films they simply illustrate a bunch of cool scenes and play connect the dots with the rest of the story, so the poor writers end up trying to figure out how to get Macgyver into the plot.

Anyway, a trump line is more obvious to me, most of the time. It's where the author thinks, I've always thought Snape is tremendously brave, and I think that none of the other teachers really understand how brave he is, so then they write a totally unnecessary staff meeting where one of the characters stands up and says while pointing to Snape, "I cannot sit here a moment longer and listen to that pompous windbag Umbridge when another man, with bravery in spades, sits here quietly." It's rather gratuitous, and it's obvious to...well, readers who pay attention.

In this author's fic, I've noticed trump scene after trump line after trump scene. There are some great lines, absolutely, but often I wonder if the scene was created to continue the plot, or just to deliver a zinger.

Snape begins as rather Snape-like, but slowly turns into some sort of Regency zombie, quiet and rumbling and deep-voiced and tender. He started as an uncaring bastard, but it turns out that once someone slips under his skin it all just melts away. Seriously, this is really beginning to bother me. Instead of having deep-rooted issues that would frighten off any sane witch, he somehow turns out to be this lovely Mr. Darcy after all. What makes Snape for me isn't just the cold sarcasm, the wit, the obvious power and intellect; it's also the immaturity he still possesses. That flash of heat at his core. You remember, the whole PoA thing, being denied his medal and Sirius Black being Kissed, and he goes mental. That's what made me shy away from him, and, strangely, it also made him more human and flawed and brought me right back. He's crazy. No, really. Anyone who holds on to a grudge that bitterly for that long...wow. He's just so damned complicated and downright fascinating that it won't matter what JKR reveals in book 7, whether it's good/bad/for himself/eating Lucky Charms--I'm hooked. Anyone who can fool that many people--that many talented people--has something between his ears. I also firmly believe that, were you to actually form some sort of tentative relationship with him, you would simply peel back layer upon layer of social awkwardness, bitterness, and regret. And there would not be a perfectly charming Victorian gentleman at the center.

The plot of this hg/ss story is really bothering me, as well. It seems rather arbitrary. Hermione is stolen away by a Malfoy, with little reason, and then returned. People are killed, and there are repercussions, but it all seems...inconsistent, somehow. I shouldn't judge this, honestly, because I'm not finished, but it just seems a little...uneven. The writing made me hope that it would interest me, and it does, but for the wrong reason, which is I'm now fascinated with why people write hg/ss and what they see in the pairing.

For example, I just read a scene where there is an attack on Muggles, and Snape is owled the news by one of the Death Eaters, who is taunting him. Instead of going straight to the Headmaster, for some bizarre reason Snape goes to Hermione first. Why? She has no knowledge of the attack, was not threatened by it, and will have nothing to do with the cleanup. He is, in fact, wasting time by talking to her. Valuable time. Later, she somehow is present at a meeting between the Headmaster and a high-ranking Ministry official, for no reason whatsoever. I'm just a little skeptical here. It reminds me of the ofc pitfall, which is when you become too attached to your character, and you view everything in the story warped through her lens.

Interestingly enough, nearly all of the characters speak with the same voice. A new character has just entered the scene and challenged Snape in an extremely caustic and overwordy near-Victorian manner, and the words could have come from nearly any of the other characters as well.

I am also getting sick of Hermione thinking over and over again, "It's Snape I'm kissing/touching/playing the piano for!" She's quite astonished/melancholy each time. It's all so highly emotional and overwrought that I just keep thinking about how the author is going to maintain this level of hand-wringing for the rest of the story.

The number of times a character inquires if the other characters in his/her vicinity are "all right" have to peak in the hundreds. I've just read a scene where one character asks this in a very serious manner, and then the character who was just asked, asks the other two characters in the same very serious manner. I don't know about you, but this seems extremely awkward for a conversation, even during wartime. That's one of the problems I'm seeing; plot and common sense sacrificed for the continual desire to have everyone constantly solicitous of the main characters.

And here we have the rather common plot: the Formal Exchange of Christmas Gifts. Is it ever anything other than a book for Snape? He always treasures it, too. Now that's a common refrain for both pairings. Snape actually goes out and has to weather actual human interactions in order to procure her something. It's always something she can't afford or couldn't bring herself to purchase, or some frightfully difficult to find book. Or some insanely amazing artifact. A lot of fanfic writers use this exchange as a tool. It's halfway through the school year, so the characters are bonding already, and this is the impetus that puts them over, or the affirmation that makes the characters treasure each other that much more. I haven't read many hg/ss stories where she's still a student, but I'd imagine that there are probably several that contain a secret gift exchange, with a bit of parchment attached containing the initials SS.

Hmm. I am also seeing something happening on the side...that is, Hermione is giving up her friends. Subtly. She's beginning to feel uncomfortable around them, and view herself as more of a contemporary of Snape's, instead. I wonder how many hg/ss fics have this feature. Perhaps it's something the fanfic writer does to shield Snape from further scrutiny, or to make him feel more at ease...to suggest that theirs is a unique understanding, and everyone else is an idiot.

The absolute worst, however, is the bizarre man who is pretending to be Headmaster Dumbledore. He brought them together with a project, and even forced Snape to receive a spell from Hermione by locking the door to his room and casting a spell on the door that would not let them out until Hermione cast a spell on Snape, which naturally required her to touch him. Dumbledore continually meddles, pushes them together, and is rather happy that they are becoming a couple. I definitely see Dumbledore as ruthless, sometimes, when he has to be, but I do not see him engaging in this kind of matchmaking, period. Especially after HBP. He likes people to make up their own minds, I think.

Naturally, I was comparing this story to ss/ofc stories I've read, and I started thinking about (warning! more subjective items approaching!) how I've seen more Mr. Darcy-style hg/ss stories than ofc/ss. I wonder i an analysis of hg/ss vs. ofc/ss stories would reveal other trends, such as author ages, basic plots, and Headmaster interference. Seriously, I've seen many more manipulative-Dumbledore hg/ss stories than ofc/ss stories.

I must admit, I do have a soft spot for these stories, generally; I like the rude, rich, and quite smart and fierce but secretly smitten Mr. Darcy-style hero once in a while. But I don't read Snape!fic for that, because that's not who Snape is to me.

One of the basic differences, of course, is that hg is a static canon character. Certainly she changes from one author's incarnation to the next. At her heart, however, she is still (or should be) a know-it-all bookworm, brave and smart (and annoying). An ofc can be an infinite number of characters. Spunky, feisty, nasty, vampiric...they're all out there, and therefore the approach is generally different from story to story. The hg/ss fics have a much smaller number of permutations, which have most likely been thoroughly explored at this point in fandom. That most likely explains why there are so many Dumbledore-puts-them-together hg/ss fics.

Most of the ss/ofc stories that I've read have definitely carried with them the distinct feel of modern romance novels. There are several highly popular styles, and the Snape character fits quite well into some, as long as you excise his crazier bits.

Upon further reflection I think that the reason ss/ofc and ss/hg fics generally differ is because they are based in different fantasies. After all, some fanfiction really is an exploration of fantasy; the writer wants to enter the world and play in it. They want to use the delicious characters in their own scenarios. Stories based on the ofc/ss pairing are rooted in a different romance tradition than stories based in the hg/ss pairing, and I think that the differing psychology of these two pairings explains some of the differences therein.

I'm tired and now I've lost the entire train of thought. I will most likely regret putting this up half-baked, but really, it's just vaguely-definied thoughts, and what else am I going to do with them?

Comments

[trickofthedark.livejournal.com]

I do see Dumbledore as being a horrible meddler, so that doesn't jar for me, and considering Dumbledore thought that sticking Harry with the Dursleys was an excellent choice, I can totally see Dumbledore trying to shove Hermione and Snape together.

Of course, I personally think Dumbledore is a moron of the highest caliber, exactly the kind of person who would try to match a fresh-faced, enthusiastic, young scholar with a bitter, rude, unpleasant asshole. Marmite on ice cream, mmmmyummy.

I used to read SS/HG but I don't really follow it anymore, and the closest I ever got to writing it was merely Hermione having an unrequited schoolgirl crush. I've also read lots of fun Snarry, and enjoyed it, but ultimately the teacher/student dynamic (or the older/younger dynamic) has never really made me believe. But it is fun for fantasy. =)

[valis2.livejournal.com]

I do see Dumbledore as being a horrible meddler, so that doesn't jar for me, and considering Dumbledore thought that sticking Harry with the Dursleys was an excellent choice, I can totally see Dumbledore trying to shove Hermione and Snape together.

hahaha! Very true.

I always thought that Ddore was pretty manipulative, etc., until I read HBP. I mean, I still think that he is--er, was manipulative, but just not to the same degree that I had previously thought, and I just wince when I read these romantic relationships that he seems to always want to build in fanfiction. Clearly we don't see that view of him in canon, due to the Harry Filter, but still, I can't see him getting that sneaky and adament about putting together two people.

ultimately the teacher/student dynamic (or the older/younger dynamic) has never really made me believe.

Yeah, same here. I always get a little uncomfortable, and that kind of ruins it for me.

As far as fantasy, anything that floats your boat, right? ;) But as far as reading, I'm a little pickier about which fantasy I choose. hee!

[trickofthedark.livejournal.com]

still, I can't see him getting that sneaky and adament about putting together two people.

You're probably right. Yeah. Too proactive, maybe, too?

[gmonkey42.livejournal.com]

Silly, random-ass comments, followed by somewhat more serious discussion:

I much prefer Snape having a relationship with an adult character, preferably someone who has lived a little...someone who will make a good partner for him, someone with experience...
...and a penis. But maybe that's just my taste.

Interestingly enough, nearly all of the characters speak with the same voice
That's dumb. It sounds like the author has read too many romance novels and not enough good writing. I hate it when the authors throw in "rather"s all over the place, for example. Most of the characters don't talk like that and even Snape, with his somewhat more formal speech style (which I think is totally an affectation resulting from a working-class halfblood trying to fit in with the likes of Malfoy), doesn't have to say "rather" or "indeed" in every single sentence. The abuse of "however" in the movies is annoying too. He knows other contractions.

"It's Snape I'm kissing/touching/playing the piano for!"
Haha, "it's Snape I'm dressing up as a dominatrix for and spanking!" Which, come to think of it, is actually pretty vanilla compared to a lot of Snape fics.

For example, I just read a scene where there is an attack on Muggles, and Snape is owled the news by one of the Death Eaters, who is taunting him. Instead of going straight to the Headmaster, for some bizarre reason Snape goes to Hermione first.
That's dumb too. It's like "hellooo? Motivation?" I guess when I think up stories, it's really dialogue- and character- driven so it particularly bugs me when people screw that up. The plot serves the characters, not the other way around. I suppose the characters could serve the plot if they're archetypal, one-dimensional characters, then the plot could be the important thing, but that doesn't work with Harry Potter characters.

I dunno, that sounds too narrow. If you're a good writer, you can make anything work. I'm not ruling that out.

HG/SS squicked the hell out of me when I first entered the fandom. Now I'll read one occasionally but I've yet to find a good one. I can see how adult!Hermione/hetero!Snape could work but I haven't seen it executed properly. The temptation to make Hermione the damsel in distress is too strong, it seems. They oughta have Hermione rescue Snape.

[snarkypants.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... I write HG/SS. All but one of my stories (since baleeted) are about a twenty-something Hermione, and my current WIP is about a widowed, mother-of-teens, late-thirties Hermione.

I get really tired of VirginPower!Hermione, and of ZOMG!Boys-are-stewpid!Hermione. My challenge to myself with this story has been to portray an adult relationship between friends/lovers, without marriage and babies, and without anyone abandoning their friends and families.

Now, granted, I am anything but a drama-llama. My stories are rather prosaic, with very little Grand-Bosom-Beating-Angst.

But as you've written this entry, and Christmas is coming up in my story, I'll try to skirt around the Big Seekrit Gift Exchange in your honor! Or have them give each other really crappy gifts. Yeah, that's the ticket!

[acerbicwit.livejournal.com]

it's also the immaturity he still possesses....it also made him more human and flawed and brought me right back. He's crazy.

This is one of the things about his character that is still not often portrays in fiction whether it's HG/SS or SS/OFC. Unfortunate too b/c it is a flaw that makes him more interesting. I also love it when he gets angry and spittle comes flying out. Another thing not mentioned enough in fan fiction.

The thing is, I've never really been into the hg/ss pairing.

Two-three years ago I would have said the same, but there is not enough fiction in the SS/OFC category and when I want to read ...I don't want to have to keep waiting. I dived into the SS/HG and after the first twenty squiks or so it did grow on me. In fact I'm more picky about the stories I read for that pairing. I think it was that ridiculous MLC that helped. If I could find a way for the pairing to be logical then I could accept it.

I give a little more leeway on the characterization and dialogue for SS/OFC....but still I'm SICK of the new teacher premise. I'm desperately hoping that now that he's out of Hogwarts an OFC Auror or Distant OFC Prince cousin or someone will come along and whisk him off on a Horcrux search. Maybe run into Sanguini in the wilds or Romania or something.

I think this is why in the past couple of months I've come out from under my shell of read/review to try to interact. Snapecast helped me see that it gets lonely not being about to discuss my fandom with others. And my co-workers are sick of hearing about the Potterverse.

[ms-hecubus.livejournal.com]

I just wrote half a reply that bored even me. Blah, blah, blah, things you already know. ;)

What makes Snape for me isn't just the cold sarcasm, the wit, the obvious power and intellect; it's also the immaturity he still possesses.

The same type of things that would draw a girl less romantic than Hermione to Snape. Also, an immature man would likely be drawn to someone even less mature than he.

However, I have to really suspend my disbelief to believe ss/hg. First and formost, he doesn't like her. He never liked her and he never will. She will never stop being a know-it-all and it will never stop rubbing him the wrong way.

Nope, for it to work he'd have to learn forgiveness and you know that ain't happening. And she'd have to learn creative thinking which, I admit, she can do, but it is uncomfortable for her. Hermione likes nice and tidy facts. Can you honestly see the same person who rewrote his potion book in love with the girl who thinks memorization is the height of learning?

Although they can have some nice, angsty sex that neither one ever admits to.

[sigune.livejournal.com]

*sigh*
I humbly beg your forgiveness; I think I'm going to rant...

It's odd, I think of myself as pretty tolerant when it comes to pairings; I don't have an OTP or sail ships, but I read a lot of different constellations. However - I find that I have a very, very low tolerance for SS/HG. Of all the unlikely partners for Snape - I'm sorry - Hermione seems to me the unlikeliest of all. I'll choose slash over this pairing any day, and that's saying something as I'm not really an HP slasher and I don't believe for a second that Snape is gay.

The SS/HG shippers will invariably say that Hermione is a serious, mature young woman (though how they can claim the 'mature' bit after HBP I don't know), so therefore she doesn't like boys of her own age (whatever happened to Ron?) and resolutely goes for a man who could be her father - correction: not just a man, but a greasy, ugly, mean, immature, petty, sarcastic, ex-criminal bastard. Sure. After all, canon says she's smart :/.

This pairing manages to bring together a lot of elements that irritate me no end. I cannot seriously believe that a girl (or even woman) like Hermione could possibly fall for a man like Snape. I also cannot seriously believe that a man like Snape would fall for a girl (or even woman) he cannot and never could stand, who is much younger than he is, and whose take on magic and morals is so vastly different from his own. Small wonder that SS/HG fics often employ utterly desperate plot devices to bring the two together: if the poor characters had their say, they'd stay as far away from each other as possible.

I just can't suspend my disbelief on this one. Then again, I should be fair and say that I have learned to avoid this pairing, so I don't have extensive reading to back me up. Maybe there are really good and believable SS/HG stories out there that take their time to lend the relationship some credibility; I just don't know. I only ever bring myself to read the pairing now when it is written by writers I admire very much - but even then, I can only enjoy the story for its own sake.

The funny thing is that many critics of Snape/OFC say that OFCs are merely substitutions for the author and thus inferior to canon characters like Hermione. In my case, it's the opposite. I tend to identify with Hermione, and because I couldn't possibly imagine someone even a little like myself having a relationship with Snape, I had to invent an original character for him :P. I think the difficulty about writing an OFC is that you have a lot of freedom - you can't use canon as a character guideline. But you can create the credible partner for Snape that canon doesn't seem to have on offer :).

[vanityfair00.livejournal.com]

I always read these things from people who don't read much in a ship, and of course they have always picked the absolute worst or even sometimes the 'classics' and then assume that we all write/read with those preferences. I don't like most of the "classic" HG/SS stories and I don't think I've ever read a kidnapped by Death Eaters story I have liked yet. I remember first coming into the HP fandom and reading all sorts of stories with Snape in it. But I kept skipping over the ones with Hermione in the summary because I thought, "ew." But then I read a few and now it's my OTP. And the "ew" feeling is still there when I read schoolage!Hermione or when you get a horrible plot like it sounds you've read.

For reading I like stories where Hermione is older and usually there is some sort of project or mystery that has thrown them together. Meggory's "The Man who stole the world" is an excellent example and is a friendship fic. Or Run Wild's "A Winter's Faiy Tale."

When it comes to writing, I like to poke fun at the fanon devices used in stories. Snape accidentally dies his hair purple in my current WIP when he tries to make his hair silkier. And another story had the pair playing parcheesi and old maid rather than the classic playing of chess scene. I even have a whole story just based on the whole "Call me Severus, Hermione" moment that is inevitably in every fic.

I can't say much to SS/OFC because I haven't read much, but it takes a lot more work on the writer's part to convince me. I already know I like Hermione. I don't know if I will like the OFC. Only a few have convinced me so far...Larilee, Veritybrown, and Vocalion. (and here I should mention that your megafic has overwhelmed to the point I'm afraid to start it so I can't speak to your own OFC.)

[larilee.livejournal.com]

I think you have some excellent points here and I'm hoping like hell even never read any of my stories on Ashwinder. :-)

One of the great divides that I see between the two is that in HG/SS comment you have the majority of writers identifying with Hermione. It's really unusual to have a story written from Snape's point of view because the character they understand is Hermione. Or at least with her version of Hermione which carries most of the writer's personality points that they share into the story. In SS/OFC, I genuinely believe that the writers are more mature and most of them share an understanding that Snape more than any other character. In fact, most SS/OFC stories are told from Snape's point of view. Or at least a larger part of the story is told from his point of view.

I think it would be interesting to do demographics of age and considering the different pairings people ship. SS/HG is my second favorite ship. I really consider myself an SS/OFC writer first and foremost. Though I have been dabbling with other characters, stretching my wings, so to speak.

It is interesting though to see that I'm not the only person who's noticed a divide. Please say you're going to Prophecy so we can sit down with a pint and discuss this. :-) As most of the writers I meet fall into these two groups, I would really love to discuss this further and in depth.

One thing I have to mention, because it's my favorite soapbox, is the unfair assertion that all Original Characters are Mary-Sues. I see enough of Hermione-Sue to make me wonder if its not just a common occurrence across the fandom, but most people would rather say she's Out of Character rather than Hermione is a Flaming Sue.

And I think Hermione is popular because she's really the only other female besides Ginny that we see a lot of (not that we see a lot of Ginny) and a lot of that is due to the Harry filter. So here are some of my incomplete thoughts. But in honor of this discussion, I'll use one of my favorite icons.

[florence-craye.livejournal.com]

What's funny is that when I first started reading fanfic, I did rather like SS/HG. Perhaps because it was so common among fanfic and I didn't feel like there was anything else to read. After a while, though, I got weary of the interactions between the two which do seem rather forced. larilee makes a good point in which she is really the only major female character in the books. Sure, Ginny and Luna are there, but not very well developed (um, character-wise for Ginny) or used too infrequently (Luna). Although I feel the same about Neville, too.

I can identify with HG in some ways, but more often than not I'm disgusted and annoyed with her self-righteousness and interfering ways. Then again, I never have liked very mothering characters. And she's got "Mother" written all over her. So I'd much rather see SS with someone else, and even Snarry is preferable to Snermione (although the teacher/student thing squicks me 99% of the time). One of my favorite pairings that seems the most likely is McGonagall/Dumbledore, because they're kind of like an old married couple already, and I can see some passion in their (relative) youths coming to the front. I've always Minerva had a wild and reckless past, but very few people seem to agree with me. But why not? Anyway, that's beside the point.

OFCs are a good thing for SS, because then you can bring someone in who is experienced and perhaps bitter, motivated by something other than "getting good grades", and is a better fit with the canon SS we have all enjoy so much. Instead of manipulating the characters into forced contact and unlikely situations, and author can work on developing the character and personality of the OFC into a full-fledged person of their own. And characterization is what it's all about! At least for me, anyway (unless it's crack!fic, tee hee).

[valis2.livejournal.com]

I can see him meddling, hells yes you're right, but I just am uneasy with him going to these lengths. Then again, what do I know? *laughs*

[valis2.livejournal.com]

I much prefer Snape having a relationship with an adult character, preferably someone who has lived a little...someone who will make a good partner for him, someone with experience...
...and a penis. But maybe that's just my taste.

Notice I only said someone. *laughs*

Most of the characters don't talk like that and even Snape, with his somewhat more formal speech style (which I think is totally an affectation resulting from a working-class halfblood trying to fit in with the likes of Malfoy), doesn't have to say "rather" or "indeed" in every single sentence.

When I started writing him it was really, really difficult to make him sound natural. He kept sounding like he'd swallowed a thesaurus and Mr. Rochester.

And I totally, totally agree with you about his speech being an affectation. I've read a couple stories where his first year at Hogwarts is horrible because he sounds so uncouth, and it's only with hard work that he hammers his speech into something more dignified.

"it's Snape I'm dressing up as a dominatrix for and spanking!"

Honestly, I'll bet there are a lot of hg/ss fics like that out there. But *I'm* not looking for them, no way. *laughs*

I guess when I think up stories, it's really dialogue- and character- driven so it particularly bugs me when people screw that up. The plot serves the characters, not the other way around.

Absolutely hells yes! I get crazy when I can see the author's machinations so transparently. When you read it and think, "Oh, that's how she's going to get him to see her as a real person", it kind of spoils it.

I think one of the biggest problems to overcome is realizing that the other characters in the scene have brains, too. Figuring out what your main characters are doing is a good exercise; figuring out what the secondary characters are doing is just as helpful. And making their actions believable is the best exercise of all.

HG/SS squicked the hell out of me when I first entered the fandom. Now I'll read one occasionally but I've yet to find a good one.

When I first started reading fics with Snape, I found The Other Side of Darkness (http://www.witchfics.org/abby/tosod.html) and Rondo Veneziano (http://www.witchfics.org/abby/rondo.html) by Abby (http://www.witchfics.org/abby/). I liked them both very much, though I am aware that not everybody feels the same way. They really captivated me as a beginning fanfic reader.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

I get really tired of VirginPower!Hermione, and of ZOMG!Boys-are-stewpid!Hermione.

See, I'm not acquainted at all with these stereotypes! Can you explain them a little further? I'm fascinated.

My challenge to myself with this story has been to portray an adult relationship between friends/lovers, without marriage and babies, and without anyone abandoning their friends and families.

Sounds like a noble, noble challenge.

I've actually been reading some of the hg/ss on your LJ, and I found it quite good, and intriguing!

But as you've written this entry, and Christmas is coming up in my story, I'll try to skirt around the Big Seekrit Gift Exchange in your honor! Or have them give each other really crappy gifts.

haha!!

Seriously, what I wouldn't give to read a fic where Snape buys her some tatty, thoughtless gift. I mean, really. Do you think he's given a gift in the last thirty years? I vote no. He may have been the recipient of some...I can't imagine Minerva not giving him anything, or Dumbledore...but him giving them out? I have this feeling that he doesn't, or that he just can't.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

This is one of the things about his character that is still not often portrays in fiction whether it's HG/SS or SS/OFC. Unfortunate too b/c it is a flaw that makes him more interesting. I also love it when he gets angry and spittle comes flying out. Another thing not mentioned enough in fan fiction.

Totally! He has such an immature streak. I've always been of the opinion, too, that were he to actually get into a relationship he's be ridiculously jealous and possessive at first. I mean, seriously, he'd be pretty horrible. It would be his first time getting something he wants, and he would put such a stranglehold on it, I think...

Two-three years ago I would have said the same, but there is not enough fiction in the SS/OFC category and when I want to read ...I don't want to have to keep waiting.

Heh...I could never really bond with ss/ofc fics. I would always reach a place where I'd think, ah, there's her Freudian slip, and end up losing interest. I think the only ofc that I didn't mind like that was a character odddollstories wrote (I think she's pulled the story, though). I know, it's kind of weird, considering that I'm writing this crazy long ss/ofc fic, but I'm just not into the pairing. I ended up wandering over to slash, instead.

I give a little more leeway on the characterization and dialogue for SS/OFC....but still I'm SICK of the new teacher premise. I'm desperately hoping that now that he's out of Hogwarts an OFC Auror or Distant OFC Prince cousin or someone will come along and whisk him off on a Horcrux search. Maybe run into Sanguini in the wilds or Romania or something.

The Hogwarts setting is the most popular, though, because I think so many people really want to "walk" in its halls and experience things. Now that you say this, I do wonder how seventh year ss/ofc fics deal with this, it's a rather intriguing dilemma.

I think this is why in the past couple of months I've come out from under my shell of read/review to try to interact. Snapecast helped me see that it gets lonely not being about to discuss my fandom with others. And my co-workers are sick of hearing about the Potterverse.

Well, I'm glad you did! It's a lot of fun to engage in conjecture with fellow fans. I love snapecast too.

And no one in my RL wants to talk about the Potterverse at all with me, really. If they do, it gets one-sided very quickly, and I feel bad. I crave fan interaction! hee!

[valis2.livejournal.com]

However, I have to really suspend my disbelief to believe ss/hg. First and formost, he doesn't like her. He never liked her and he never will. She will never stop being a know-it-all and it will never stop rubbing him the wrong way.

I think he views her as...competition, in a way. I think he hates it when someone is as clever as he is, and I cannot imagine him really liking her that much in canon at all.

Nope, for it to work he'd have to learn forgiveness and you know that ain't happening. And she'd have to learn creative thinking which, I admit, she can do, but it is uncomfortable for her. Hermione likes nice and tidy facts. Can you honestly see the same person who rewrote his potion book in love with the girl who thinks memorization is the height of learning?

Exactly. Wow, this is such a good point!

Although they can have some nice, angsty sex that neither one ever admits to.

And they can send super sekrit books to each other with cryptic notes.

I still love that icon so very much.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

I think I'm going to rant...

Oh, please do!

However - I find that I have a very, very low tolerance for SS/HG. Of all the unlikely partners for Snape - I'm sorry - Hermione seems to me the unlikeliest of all.

That's part of the problem for me with ss/hg. There is such a gulf to cross just to get me to think that they're a good pairing.

The SS/HG shippers will invariably say that Hermione is a serious, mature young woman (though how they can claim the 'mature' bit after HBP I don't know), so therefore she doesn't like boys of her own age (whatever happened to Ron?) and resolutely goes for a man who could be her father - correction: not just a man, but a greasy, ugly, mean, immature, petty, sarcastic, ex-criminal bastard.

Yes, despite the fact that she defends him in canon, I don't think she really likes him. At all. I think she merely gives him the respect due to a teacher. After all, he made her cry so horribly about the teeth, and I think that he's just so nasty to her and her friends...I don't think there's any real basis for a connection there.

Did you see ms_hecubus's comment above? She mentions how Hermione is just not enough of a creative thinker, either, contrasting Snape and his revision of his Potions text with Hermione, who memorizes everything. What a terrific point.

Small wonder that SS/HG fics often employ utterly desperate plot devices to bring the two together: if the poor characters had their say, they'd stay as far away from each other as possible.

Oh yes, and notice how Dumbledore so often is called upon to link them together, sometimes almost against their will.

The funny thing is that many critics of Snape/OFC say that OFCs are merely substitutions for the author and thus inferior to canon characters like Hermione. In my case, it's the opposite.

That's very interesting! I always think that hg/ss has its own problems with self-inserts, and that there are plenty of Hermione!Sues running around, honestly. Mary Sue isn't just confined to OFC fics, though you do find her more often there.

But you can create the credible partner for Snape that canon doesn't seem to have on offer :).

YES, absolutely. That was why I started writing the bloated ss/ofc story; I thought that it would be very interesting to see what he did if someone who was somewhat compatible with him showed up.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

I always read these things from people who don't read much in a ship, and of course they have always picked the absolute worst or even sometimes the 'classics' and then assume that we all write/read with those preferences.

I've read a few that I actually enjoyed, seriously. And this fic isn't horrible; it's not even close to the worst, by far. I mean, I'm not even skimming it just to get to the good bits; I've read nearly every word of two thirds of it so far, which is pretty rare for me. I've found plenty to like. Severus has some terrific lines which resonated strongly, and everyone is tense and strained, and there is a lot to enjoy. I'm just a nitpicker, and I found a lot of little details that jarred.

But then I read a few and now it's my OTP.

I'm really glad that you commented, because this helps a lot. I really want to know more about the good and bad things about the fics in this pairing, and I just don't understand it, so it's helpful to get someone who does like it to come in and explain about it.

When it comes to writing, I like to poke fun at the fanon devices used in stories. Snape accidentally dies his hair purple in my current WIP when he tries to make his hair silkier. And another story had the pair playing parcheesi and old maid rather than the classic playing of chess scene. I even have a whole story just based on the whole "Call me Severus, Hermione" moment that is inevitably in every fic.

Oh, yes! I totally forgot about the first name moment. Totally. It was, of course a two-parter in this fic; one for when he calls her Hermione, and then a few chapters later when he says to call him Severus.

I can't say much to SS/OFC because I haven't read much, but it takes a lot more work on the writer's part to convince me.I already know I like Hermione. I don't know if I will like the OFC.

Oh, I see! That makes a lot of sense, because the OFC is so different from story to story.

Only a few have convinced me so far...Larilee, Veritybrown, and Vocalion. (and here I should mention that your megafic has overwhelmed to the point I'm afraid to start it so I can't speak to your own OFC.)

Heh...I totally understand, it does seem like a lot of story, but the chapters are relatively short and it reads quickly, I've been told. I tried to tell the story in more of a JKR style, and though it does have wordy sections, I tried to avoid the Regency romance thing entirely. If you ever are bored one day, it might be fun to give it another chance. ;)

[valis2.livejournal.com]

I think you have some excellent points here and I'm hoping like hell even never read any of my stories on Ashwinder. :-)

Heh...I have only logged on to Ashwinder once, I think, and I've only read a few stories there, if that. No worries. ;)

One of the great divides that I see between the two is that in HG/SS comment you have the majority of writers identifying with Hermione.

How totally interesting! I had no idea, of course. This is so totally fascinating. I had noticed that in this particular story Hermione takes the main stage, with only occasional Snape POVs.

In SS/OFC, I genuinely believe that the writers are more mature and most of them share an understanding that Snape more than any other character.

That is such a great point. I see what you're saying, and it totally intrigues me. I'm totally into Snape, and I have not been as happy with ss/hg stories because the Snape sometimes just isn't very satisfying. But then again, the story would be just as skewed toward Hermione, after all, because the writer is a Hermione fan, so she could do what ofc writers do with their ofc; they create the ofc to be Snape's partner. So hg/ss writers might sometimes write Snape to be Hermione's partner. Totally interesting.

It is interesting though to see that I'm not the only person who's noticed a divide. Please say you're going to Prophecy so we can sit down with a pint and discuss this. :-)

Unfortunately, I'm signed up for Phoenix. There is a teeny chance that I might drive up to Prophecy, but right now I'd have to say no. :(

One thing I have to mention, because it's my favorite soapbox, is the unfair assertion that all Original Characters are Mary-Sues. I see enough of Hermione-Sue to make me wonder if its not just a common occurrence across the fandom, but most people would rather say she's Out of Character rather than Hermione is a Flaming Sue.

Yes, exactly. Sometimes people hide behind the OOC terminology to avoid that Canon Sue moniker. Heh. And I hate the unfair premise that all OFCs are Mary Sues as well. That drives me berserk.

So here are some of my incomplete thoughts.

Thanks for sharing them...I really enjoyed reading them!

[valis2.livejournal.com]

After a while, though, I got weary of the interactions between the two which do seem rather forced.

Sometimes I think they have a laundry list before they even start, honestly.

a) must get to first name basis
b) must participate in Christmas gift exchange
c) must help each other in super sekrit project
d) must rescue one or the other from ubermeany DEs
e) must apologize for teeth insult incident

I can identify with HG in some ways, but more often than not I'm disgusted and annoyed with her self-righteousness and interfering ways.

I have this really strange obsession with emotionless characters, or characters who exhibit tight control over their emotions...especially women. Most female characters are far too emotional for my taste. It's a very weird thing, but it's why I am only too happy to be writing a long ss/ofc fic...I get to read about a somewhat unemotional female character. You don't find many of them in ss/ofc fics, really.

So I'd much rather see SS with someone else, and even Snarry is preferable to Snermione (although the teacher/student thing squicks me 99% of the time).

I agree, absolutely. I really prefer stories where the "kid" character has left Hogwarts, and come back after several years, or found Snape after several years...they have to have done at least a little bit of living.

One of my favorite pairings that seems the most likely is McGonagall/Dumbledore, because they're kind of like an old married couple already, and I can see some passion in their (relative) youths coming to the front.

I don't read fics with that pairing, but I really like the concept. Yeah, I'm weird about what I read, I know.

OFCs are a good thing for SS, because then you can bring someone in who is experienced and perhaps bitter, motivated by something other than "getting good grades", and is a better fit with the canon SS we have all enjoy so much.

Yes, totally! He needs a full-grown woman, I think, someone who knows how to put up with his crazy-ass self.

And characterization is what it's all about! At least for me, anyway (unless it's crack!fic, tee hee).

Or squid!fic, in which case everything goes right out the door as well. ;)

[dark-cygnet.livejournal.com]

And this is why you should read Lupin/Snape instead! ;)

[valis2.livejournal.com]

Believe me, I've pretty much abandoned ss/ofc. Snupin is probably my favorite pairing right now. (I'm even in the snupin_santa challenge! yay!)

[dark-cygnet.livejournal.com]

snupin_santa challenge! WOO HOO!

[ms-hecubus.livejournal.com]

And he can be her liason to the house elves of Hogwarts because he, deep down, cares so much for equality and fairness. And because, of course, he will return to Hogwarts to teach because he (secretly) loves it so much!

[mariannelee.livejournal.com]

I agree, hg is static, and that makes some stiff rules for hg/ss shippers.

For me, though, I can't get around the fact that canon hg would never, ever, ever go for Snape. And vice-versa. I just don't see it, and I read hg/ss while supressing an eye-roll. Even if the writing is good.

Snape begins as rather Snape-like, but slowly turns into some sort of Regency zombie, quiet and rumbling and deep-voiced and tender.

I think this is what turns me off of so much SS romantic fic. I have to admit that for my own fic, I softened him. It's imperative. Canon Snape is so unsympathetic, so unattractive, and so unlikely to function even adequately in a romantic relationship, that the fanficcer must make compromises to write a believable fic. However, sex-god!Snape is going too far. Snape who remembers her birthday, relates to small children, buys little meaningful gifts, and knows the right thing to say, is going too far. Snape who is not childish and selfish is out of character.

And here we have the rather common plot: the Formal Exchange of Christmas Gifts.

Guilty!

Although, I had him giver her a gift only because she gave him one first, and he felt he must reciprocate. (And he gave her a book from his library.)

I think it's not just that Christmas is mid-year. So is New Year's, with the kiss at midnight, but you don't see a lot of that. It's just that this is a holiday that is highly charged for most people, and Christmas gifts are often something you remember. Gift-giving is also a cultural thing. Between a man and a woman who are not related or dating, it is a sign of the depth of their relationship. (i.e. the gift is not obligatory) Also, I think that for Snape fics, he is so unlikely to give gifts at all, that the Christmas gift is a handy shortcut, a cliche, for the author to show his feelings without the faux pas of mushy language.

I've seen more Mr. Darcy-style hg/ss stories than ofc/ss.

I wonder if this has to do with the difference in their ages.

Interesting post.