About Mary Sues

[valis2]

I originally posted this on privatemaladict's journal...thought it was interesting enough to post here too.



Always love getting into a MS debate.

Self-insertion is going to happen to a degree, regardless of whether the author wants it to or not. As long as we're writing about characters and not completely alien aliens, we're going to have to put something into that character that we know about ourselves, even if it is just something simple like breathing in and out.

I think that there are two different kinds of self-insertion.

A) Regular self-insertion

and

B) Wish-fulfillment self-insertion.

"A" happens all the time in all writing, because you need some little bit of yourself to put in the clay to make it come to life.

"B" is where the problems begin. I think they usually start with the words "Wouldn't it be cool if..." and snowball from there. Wish-fulfillment is usually only satisfying to the one making the wish. To everyone else, it can be annoying.

Most of the deleterius Mary Sues are over-the-top wish-fulfillment self-insertions. These are really obvious because the character has so many unusual qualities and, more importantly, warps the story until everything and everyone references her in some way.

So when does a self-insert become a Mary Sue? When does innocent "A" morph into sinister "B"?

Well, it is all a matter of degree, IMO. When the character quirks and strengths start eclipsing the character---when they start to distort the character's shape like a black hole pulling on the edge of a star---that's when to stop.

I've read many, many Snapefics at this point, and several OC-centric fics. Usually the Mary Sue leaps out fairly quickly. And she's not always all sweetness and light---sometimes she's dark and angst-ridden, or dangerous and demonic. The most important thing to note is that she is pulling the story along with her, wrapping it around her little finger, and in general warping everything to her advantage. Mary Sues in Snapefics generally have one of several apparently prescribed scenarios:

a) New student, horrible life, tragedy follows her, Snape either bullies her at first and then comes to protect/love her, or treats her lukewarmly at first and then comes to protect/love her.

b) New student, arrogant beyond belief, wears black nail polish or whatever Goth trend is in that month, and snarks Snape to his face, leaving him speechless, then saunters out of class, coolly disinterested. Usually this leads to either Snape having to clash with her constantly until they realize they are made for each other, or the Mary Sue hooks up with Ron, Harry, Draco, etc.

c) New teacher, same scenario as "a".

d) New teacher, same scenario as "b".

Eventually, after reading so many fics, you get to the point where you can immediately see which scenario is being played out, and get out before you lose too many brain cells.

It is my little pet theory that Mary Sues are a little blueprint for whatever eats at us. If someone has trouble with anger, perhaps repressing too much, she'll write the ANGRY Sue that yells at people over the slightest provocation. The important part of this scenario is not the yelling. It is the reaction. Either both parties will sustain the yelling for a while, with the Sue coming out "on top", or the Sue will march out of the room after a "snappy" comeback, leaving "devastation" in her wake. See, the thing is, the Suethor writing it thinks that they've invented the wheel, when in reality her Freudian slip is showing.

Okay, I've babbled enough. Sorry. ;)

Comments

[snapesforte.livejournal.com]

Eventually, after reading so many fics, you get to the point where you can immediately see which scenario is being played out, and get out before you lose too many brain cells.

You're right, I now have a built-in radar that can spot a Mary Sue as soon as it opens its mouth or as soon as it's described, and I am able to click the 'back' or the 'x' button on my browser (which button I press depends on how annoyed and/or disgusted I am). Sometimes you can actually feel your brain cells trying to run for it.

See, the thing is, the Suethor writing it thinks that they've invented the wheel, when in reality her Freudian slip is showing.

Spot on.

I've been thinking about all the rape-fic out there lately. I have read one that was written in a decent and thoughtful way, and I think the subject matter was handled maturely. One. The rest either sound like some ten year old trying to make her story sound more 'grown up', or odd wish-fulfillment. I suppose some of it may have been written by the Suethor's (great term, btw), and writing is a good form of self-help, I just don't see why it has to be shared with every single person with internet access.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking about all the rape-fic out there lately. I have read one that was written in a decent and thoughtful way, and I think the subject matter was handled maturely. One. The rest either sound like some ten year old trying to make her story sound more 'grown up', or odd wish-fulfillment. I suppose some of it may have been written by the Suethor's (great term, btw), and writing is a good form of self-help, I just don't see why it has to be shared with every single person with internet access.

I really think that many younger Suethor's Sues can be divided into two camps: Sues that Shine and Sues that Angst. Shining Sues are the epitome of whatever qualities the Suethor desires; beautiful, violet eyes, wings, amazing powers, whatever. Angsting Sues are the other side of the coin, and that's where we get the Rape Sues. I think it may be that the Suethor is trying to get the audience to like her character. In the SS example the Sue is remarkable, and there is not a thing wrong with her, so the Suethor thinks we can't reject her. In the AS scenario, the Sue has done nothing wrong, yet has been punished terribly by things outside of her control, so we should pity her.

Neither scenario really works as the author intends it to, honestly. Mature readers roll their eyes at the SS, and get turned off by the miserable life of the AS. In both situations the Suethor has not truly considered what the audience really wants: believability. Oh, sure, the Suethor thinks, I know a six foot tall woman with red hair and olive skin and blue eyes, therefore it is admissable. They don't realize how rare certain things are, and how glaring it is when they're all piled on at once.

I don't know if you've read any LotR Sues, but they're much the same. Thanks to luvboromir24601 I've begun to realize how universal many of the themes are. LotR Sues are very often hawt warrior goddesses with mad fighting skillz, much as HP Sues are witches with amazing powers or demonic origins. And LotR Sues have their share of Angsty Sues as well.

I also think that nearly every fanfic writer has to go through the Sue process once, to purge her from the system, so that they can (hopefully) go on to write better stories.

Oh, and Suethor was probably coined by someone on deleterius or pottersues. I love that term, so much easier to use than "Mary Sue author" etc.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

I should have mentioned that luvboromir24601 is a member of deleterius and finds all sorts of terrible LotR Sues.

no Mary Sue content

[gypsyjolie.livejournal.com]

have you seen this new Snape wallpaper? It is beeyootiful. I thought of you.

Re: no Mary Sue content

[valis2.livejournal.com]

Yum! Thank you!