The Insidious Mary Sue: Deeper Sueism
Mar. 25th, 2006 06:19 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
valis2I've already babbled at length about Mary Sues in this entry about writing fanfiction, so I won't rehash the basic definition of a MS, as y'all are quite thoroughly familiar with it, I'm certain.
What I've been thinking about a lot recently is Deeper Sueism. I don't mean the really obvious Sues, who run around killing orcs with their Bare Palm Crushing Strike attack, or practice their Unforgiveable Countercurses on the Quidditch pitch.
No, I mean the more Subtle Sues.
Y'know, when I first started reading fanfic, I was unfamiliar with the term author self-insertion. I had no idea what a Mary Sue was, until a friend who was active in the X-files fandom explained it to me. I was on the periphery of the Mummy fandom at the time, and just beginning to think up my first HP fic, which was going to feature an OFC. I had several scenarios in mind before I heard about Mary Sue.
After my friend told me about Sues, I spent several days reading anything I could that was available on the internet about Sues. After I was finished I sat back and thought, well, there goes most of my scenarios. Heh.
As I read more fanfic, I began to see Sue in all her glory. I noticed her in many obvious places. She would be a Special Animagus who could transform into any animal. She would be a Dark Elf who would charm Legolas in moments flat. She was fluent in many languages, had martial arts skills, or a terrific voice. Sometimes she was a Dark Sue, so bitter and with such an angst-filled past that I could actually picture a stormcloud above her head.
It took several more fanfics for me to see the Deeper Sue.
She lurks in many OFC fanfics. She's the kind of character where some people will call "Sue" fairly quickly, and others will not see it at all. Why? Well, she's linked to (and sometimes is the main character) one of the most popular genres in the publishing field: romance novels.
Most Deeper Sue stories have decent to great SPAG (spelling, punctuation, and grammar), are fairly plotty and, in many cases, quite long. They often attract a large contingent of readers and reviewers who compliment the story. The Deeper Sue isn't really the outright gratuitous wish-fulfillment fantasy that most Sue stories are; she's a bit more subtle.
I've been thinking about her, and I've found a few things that seem to accompany her.
Her stories are stuffed, or overstuffed, with the author's own interests. Does the author like wild birds? Well, the Sue will own a bird, one that is special or exclusive, or perhaps mirrors the author's own bird. Is the author heavily involved in a relationship involving submission/domination? That will probably show up as well. Does the author think that bartenders have the coolest job? The Sue will most likely have bartended in the past. If the author is very interested in championing certain causes, those causes (however unrelated to the scenario/plot) will somehow end up in the fic, with the Sue passionately speaking the author's mind.
Just as with a regular Sue, the Deeper Sue is subverting the story to her own personality. The Deeper Sue, in her own way, has warped the plot and the canon characters around her. She might not be wearing a miniskirt and red lipstick and sitting on Snape's desk, egging him on, but she is still doing a disservice to her story. The author would probably say, "But it's my story, to tell as I like!" Well, of course it is. In fact, it could end up being quite popular in its own right. But fandom isn't just about popularity; it's about many other things as well, such as improving your writing skills, engaging in conversations with terrific writers, and trying to communicate something elusive to someone else. The Deeper Sue doesn't communicate, you see. She bludgeons you with her thoughts, but sometimes there isn't much point behind them.
I've noticed some of the same trappings in wildly different HP fanfics, which all happened to showcase Deeper Sues. I remember reading one which involved a lecture by the author in the notes about how awful some D/s relationships can be, and then in that chapter the characters reminisced about horrible relationships that they'd had prior to their current one. But the reminiscing was done so ham-handedly and overbearingly that the point was nearly lost. I've read a story with a character who comes to Hogwarts to teach, but before she begins as an instructor, the author gives us a tremendous expositional block about her past, which involved bartending three days a month at a very popular bar, and how she knew the owner, and was in such demand and made so much money on those three days that she had the rest of each month free, and donated most of the money to charity, because she only needed enough to put gas in her car. I've read stories where the characters have started businesses that are superenlightened, with daycare, one paid day off a week, and fringe benefits that far outweigh logic. I've read stories where the character is pretty much an orphan, but not just in the traditional sense. I mean that they have no meaningful social interaction in their lives, no reason for living...they are marking time until the owl arrives to tell them they're going to teach at Hogwarts. Up until that moment they've been wandering about, apparently with no or few friends, an empty house, almost like zombies.
What brings all of these things together? These situations are patently based in wish-fulfillment.
These aren't the really obvious scenarios like the girl with color-changing mood eyes. There are reviews for all of the fics I just mention, and none of them mention the Sueish nature of the fics. Because, were these to be published under the Harlequin imprint, or as a romance novel, no one would bat an eyelash. They are part of a grand tradition of subtle wish-fulfillment. After all, there are many people who read books to escape, and don't desire realism. It isn't quite as obvious because all of the characters are original characters, and not based on someone else's characters.
I find that I am fascinated with these fics. I am always paging through the reviews to see if someone has seen through to the Sueism and has commented on it.
Most of these fics, in the hands of an experienced writer, could easily be salvaged and turned into something enthralling instead of barely entertaining. What is the difference? The story. In nearly all of the examples there is too much plot, and too many details that simply could be dropped without causing the least bit of trouble to the story.
The characterization also changes everything as well. The character must truly exist in the author's mind. The author can't simply make endless charts of the character's blood type and favorite ice cream flavor. In one of the stories I mentioned, the character is just puttering around her deceased parents' home, going through the motions, until the owl comes from Hogwarts. The thing is, she didn't know that the owl was coming! Why would her life have this tremendous feeling of stagnation and waiting? In the rest of the fic she's rather determined and a bit headstrong, yet the reader gets the feeling that she was locked in limbo, waiting for an owl she didn't know was coming. It's illogical, and worse yet, it robs the author of a valuable chance to illustrate what the character is leaving behind. Shouldn't there be a friend? Business colleagues? Someone to say goodbye to? I know that when I left my childhood home, it was with a terrific sense of sadness and relief.
Logic is tremendously important. The main character should be interacting with people in a rational manner. Given that this is fanfic, and that the audience (mostly) knows the canon characters forwards and backwards, the author has a responsibility to pay attention to their characterization as well. Snape is relatively acid-tongued, smooth even under pressure, and more than capable of taking care of himself. If the author is writing him into a romantic relationship with an OFC, then it goes to follow that he is going to be difficult to get to know. He has issues, to put it simply. To think that an OFC could render him speechless with a single puerile insult is not only preposterous, it makes Snape fans pretty angry. And Snape fans are the people who will be reading this fic. Snape must act in a logical manner, and so should the other characters. When the characters do not have separate lives apart from the OFC, then it becomes an even bigger problem. When all of the male characters are smitten with the OFC in the same manner it seems highly unlikely, for example.
A scene needs to be viewed through the eyes of all the characters involved in it. It often seems as if the Deeper Sue writers have the OFC viewpoint down pat, but the other characters wander about like zombies, with the occasional flash of canon verve. If Snape, the OFC, and Hooch are having a conversation about Bludgers, then it needs to be analyzed from all three angles. The author should look at it carefully to make certain that it makes sense from all three characters' viewpoints. Would Snape really be enthused about Hooch's speech about better judging techniques? Maybe not, if he thinks it will impact his Slytherin Quidditch team. Would Hooch care what Snape says? She probably thinks he's a stick in the mud. Or maybe she thinks he's dangerous. Each character is a living, breathing person, with many reasons and rationales for doing things in a certain way, and should be treated as individuals.
I remember the first thoughts I had when I was developing the OFC/SS story. I thought about the OFC, and thought up a scene where she would be watching Quidditch practise, and be challenged to a flying match by Hooch, who remembered her from her student days. And of course the OFC was fantastic in the match, standing on the broom at one point to the delight of those watching. In another scene she brings in a dangerous creature for the DADA class and just barely manages to get it back under control after Draco does something stupid and sets it free. The thing is, these scenes were completely unrealistic. What did the flying match really accomplish? It was nothing more than a "look how cool she is" moment. Just because she is a teacher does not mean that the students have to love her. In fact, they are all characters in their own right. Draco isn't there just so that the OFC can put him down and show her worth to the Gryffindors. In fact, Draco is a dangerous character in many ways, with connections to government and money and Death Eaters, and shutting him down in a nasty way could have repercussions.
Which brings me to another point, which is the continuing nature of the story. If the OFC does something risky like bring in a dangerous creature that she can't quite control, then the other teachers are probably going to have their own thoughts about it. Some of them will voice their concerns, while others will privately say something to the Headmaster or Deputy Headmistress, or even the Daily Prophet. They most likely will not ostracize her for a single event like this, but one or two might speak to her or treat her differently for a little while afterwards, at least. People tend to remember things, and they store up opinions and thoughts. Characters don't always have enough room to be this complex, but they should definitely reflect the events that have happened in the story, at the very least.
I read Deeper Sues, and the accompanying reviews (many of them glowing), and I usually think to myself, the author is writing her way around Hogwarts, doing the things she wants to do at Hogwarts, living a life she wouldn't mind living at all. I want something more from a story, though. Think about it this way. When you are telling a dream you've had to someone else, it's fascinating to you, really amazing and interesting. However, when someone describes a dream they've had, unless it's really unusual, or involving people you know, it's not really that scintillating. Fanfic is the same way.
ETA: To clarify just a bit, I'm not trying to impugn wish-fulfillment. I just think that Mary Sue/Deeper Mary Sue is wish-fulfillment gone wrong, in some ways.![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
mariannelee and sylvadin point out, correctly, that wish-fulfillment is the basis of fanfic, and that it is the basis of many other stories as well. I think that what is necessary is to take the dream and make it interesting not just for yourself, which is a tough thing to do.
What I've been thinking about a lot recently is Deeper Sueism. I don't mean the really obvious Sues, who run around killing orcs with their Bare Palm Crushing Strike attack, or practice their Unforgiveable Countercurses on the Quidditch pitch.
No, I mean the more Subtle Sues.
Y'know, when I first started reading fanfic, I was unfamiliar with the term author self-insertion. I had no idea what a Mary Sue was, until a friend who was active in the X-files fandom explained it to me. I was on the periphery of the Mummy fandom at the time, and just beginning to think up my first HP fic, which was going to feature an OFC. I had several scenarios in mind before I heard about Mary Sue.
After my friend told me about Sues, I spent several days reading anything I could that was available on the internet about Sues. After I was finished I sat back and thought, well, there goes most of my scenarios. Heh.
As I read more fanfic, I began to see Sue in all her glory. I noticed her in many obvious places. She would be a Special Animagus who could transform into any animal. She would be a Dark Elf who would charm Legolas in moments flat. She was fluent in many languages, had martial arts skills, or a terrific voice. Sometimes she was a Dark Sue, so bitter and with such an angst-filled past that I could actually picture a stormcloud above her head.
It took several more fanfics for me to see the Deeper Sue.
She lurks in many OFC fanfics. She's the kind of character where some people will call "Sue" fairly quickly, and others will not see it at all. Why? Well, she's linked to (and sometimes is the main character) one of the most popular genres in the publishing field: romance novels.
Most Deeper Sue stories have decent to great SPAG (spelling, punctuation, and grammar), are fairly plotty and, in many cases, quite long. They often attract a large contingent of readers and reviewers who compliment the story. The Deeper Sue isn't really the outright gratuitous wish-fulfillment fantasy that most Sue stories are; she's a bit more subtle.
I've been thinking about her, and I've found a few things that seem to accompany her.
Her stories are stuffed, or overstuffed, with the author's own interests. Does the author like wild birds? Well, the Sue will own a bird, one that is special or exclusive, or perhaps mirrors the author's own bird. Is the author heavily involved in a relationship involving submission/domination? That will probably show up as well. Does the author think that bartenders have the coolest job? The Sue will most likely have bartended in the past. If the author is very interested in championing certain causes, those causes (however unrelated to the scenario/plot) will somehow end up in the fic, with the Sue passionately speaking the author's mind.
Just as with a regular Sue, the Deeper Sue is subverting the story to her own personality. The Deeper Sue, in her own way, has warped the plot and the canon characters around her. She might not be wearing a miniskirt and red lipstick and sitting on Snape's desk, egging him on, but she is still doing a disservice to her story. The author would probably say, "But it's my story, to tell as I like!" Well, of course it is. In fact, it could end up being quite popular in its own right. But fandom isn't just about popularity; it's about many other things as well, such as improving your writing skills, engaging in conversations with terrific writers, and trying to communicate something elusive to someone else. The Deeper Sue doesn't communicate, you see. She bludgeons you with her thoughts, but sometimes there isn't much point behind them.
I've noticed some of the same trappings in wildly different HP fanfics, which all happened to showcase Deeper Sues. I remember reading one which involved a lecture by the author in the notes about how awful some D/s relationships can be, and then in that chapter the characters reminisced about horrible relationships that they'd had prior to their current one. But the reminiscing was done so ham-handedly and overbearingly that the point was nearly lost. I've read a story with a character who comes to Hogwarts to teach, but before she begins as an instructor, the author gives us a tremendous expositional block about her past, which involved bartending three days a month at a very popular bar, and how she knew the owner, and was in such demand and made so much money on those three days that she had the rest of each month free, and donated most of the money to charity, because she only needed enough to put gas in her car. I've read stories where the characters have started businesses that are superenlightened, with daycare, one paid day off a week, and fringe benefits that far outweigh logic. I've read stories where the character is pretty much an orphan, but not just in the traditional sense. I mean that they have no meaningful social interaction in their lives, no reason for living...they are marking time until the owl arrives to tell them they're going to teach at Hogwarts. Up until that moment they've been wandering about, apparently with no or few friends, an empty house, almost like zombies.
What brings all of these things together? These situations are patently based in wish-fulfillment.
These aren't the really obvious scenarios like the girl with color-changing mood eyes. There are reviews for all of the fics I just mention, and none of them mention the Sueish nature of the fics. Because, were these to be published under the Harlequin imprint, or as a romance novel, no one would bat an eyelash. They are part of a grand tradition of subtle wish-fulfillment. After all, there are many people who read books to escape, and don't desire realism. It isn't quite as obvious because all of the characters are original characters, and not based on someone else's characters.
I find that I am fascinated with these fics. I am always paging through the reviews to see if someone has seen through to the Sueism and has commented on it.
Most of these fics, in the hands of an experienced writer, could easily be salvaged and turned into something enthralling instead of barely entertaining. What is the difference? The story. In nearly all of the examples there is too much plot, and too many details that simply could be dropped without causing the least bit of trouble to the story.
The characterization also changes everything as well. The character must truly exist in the author's mind. The author can't simply make endless charts of the character's blood type and favorite ice cream flavor. In one of the stories I mentioned, the character is just puttering around her deceased parents' home, going through the motions, until the owl comes from Hogwarts. The thing is, she didn't know that the owl was coming! Why would her life have this tremendous feeling of stagnation and waiting? In the rest of the fic she's rather determined and a bit headstrong, yet the reader gets the feeling that she was locked in limbo, waiting for an owl she didn't know was coming. It's illogical, and worse yet, it robs the author of a valuable chance to illustrate what the character is leaving behind. Shouldn't there be a friend? Business colleagues? Someone to say goodbye to? I know that when I left my childhood home, it was with a terrific sense of sadness and relief.
Logic is tremendously important. The main character should be interacting with people in a rational manner. Given that this is fanfic, and that the audience (mostly) knows the canon characters forwards and backwards, the author has a responsibility to pay attention to their characterization as well. Snape is relatively acid-tongued, smooth even under pressure, and more than capable of taking care of himself. If the author is writing him into a romantic relationship with an OFC, then it goes to follow that he is going to be difficult to get to know. He has issues, to put it simply. To think that an OFC could render him speechless with a single puerile insult is not only preposterous, it makes Snape fans pretty angry. And Snape fans are the people who will be reading this fic. Snape must act in a logical manner, and so should the other characters. When the characters do not have separate lives apart from the OFC, then it becomes an even bigger problem. When all of the male characters are smitten with the OFC in the same manner it seems highly unlikely, for example.
A scene needs to be viewed through the eyes of all the characters involved in it. It often seems as if the Deeper Sue writers have the OFC viewpoint down pat, but the other characters wander about like zombies, with the occasional flash of canon verve. If Snape, the OFC, and Hooch are having a conversation about Bludgers, then it needs to be analyzed from all three angles. The author should look at it carefully to make certain that it makes sense from all three characters' viewpoints. Would Snape really be enthused about Hooch's speech about better judging techniques? Maybe not, if he thinks it will impact his Slytherin Quidditch team. Would Hooch care what Snape says? She probably thinks he's a stick in the mud. Or maybe she thinks he's dangerous. Each character is a living, breathing person, with many reasons and rationales for doing things in a certain way, and should be treated as individuals.
I remember the first thoughts I had when I was developing the OFC/SS story. I thought about the OFC, and thought up a scene where she would be watching Quidditch practise, and be challenged to a flying match by Hooch, who remembered her from her student days. And of course the OFC was fantastic in the match, standing on the broom at one point to the delight of those watching. In another scene she brings in a dangerous creature for the DADA class and just barely manages to get it back under control after Draco does something stupid and sets it free. The thing is, these scenes were completely unrealistic. What did the flying match really accomplish? It was nothing more than a "look how cool she is" moment. Just because she is a teacher does not mean that the students have to love her. In fact, they are all characters in their own right. Draco isn't there just so that the OFC can put him down and show her worth to the Gryffindors. In fact, Draco is a dangerous character in many ways, with connections to government and money and Death Eaters, and shutting him down in a nasty way could have repercussions.
Which brings me to another point, which is the continuing nature of the story. If the OFC does something risky like bring in a dangerous creature that she can't quite control, then the other teachers are probably going to have their own thoughts about it. Some of them will voice their concerns, while others will privately say something to the Headmaster or Deputy Headmistress, or even the Daily Prophet. They most likely will not ostracize her for a single event like this, but one or two might speak to her or treat her differently for a little while afterwards, at least. People tend to remember things, and they store up opinions and thoughts. Characters don't always have enough room to be this complex, but they should definitely reflect the events that have happened in the story, at the very least.
I read Deeper Sues, and the accompanying reviews (many of them glowing), and I usually think to myself, the author is writing her way around Hogwarts, doing the things she wants to do at Hogwarts, living a life she wouldn't mind living at all. I want something more from a story, though. Think about it this way. When you are telling a dream you've had to someone else, it's fascinating to you, really amazing and interesting. However, when someone describes a dream they've had, unless it's really unusual, or involving people you know, it's not really that scintillating. Fanfic is the same way.
ETA: To clarify just a bit, I'm not trying to impugn wish-fulfillment. I just think that Mary Sue/Deeper Mary Sue is wish-fulfillment gone wrong, in some ways.
mariannelee and sylvadin point out, correctly, that wish-fulfillment is the basis of fanfic, and that it is the basis of many other stories as well. I think that what is necessary is to take the dream and make it interesting not just for yourself, which is a tough thing to do.![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2006-03-25 11:47 pm (UTC)A scene needs to be viewed through the eyes of all the characters involved in it.
*writes that down* That's just plain good advice for any writer, of an OFC or no. I tend to forget that bit very easily. :)
(no subject)
Date: 2006-03-26 12:08 am (UTC)I agree with many of your points. But on the following point, I'd like to toss in my two cents:
"Her stories are stuffed, or overstuffed, with the author's own interests. Does the author like wild birds? Well, the Sue will own a bird, one that is special or exclusive, or perhaps mirrors the author's own bird."
I don't think that an author using their own interests to flesh out an OC is bad per se, so long as it is done in moderation. After all, most college creative writing instructs hammer into their students the motto 'write what you know'. For most authors, that motto translates into writing about things they do in real life. Well done stories can give us characters through which we can experience hobbies or professions that we would never be exposed to otherwise. Not so subtle writing, on the other hand... The problem with Deeper Mary Sues is that the authors mistake 'write what you know' with 'preach what you believe'.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-03-26 12:10 am (UTC)You win at life.
♥
(no subject)
Date: 2006-03-26 12:12 am (UTC)Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
:-)
(no subject)
Date: 2006-03-26 12:23 am (UTC)Very good observations about Deeper Sues. I realize that a lot of the stories that I wrote when I was 10 or 11 fit into that category, and that was before I even knew what fanfic was.
While not the best stories to read, I think Deeper Sue fics have their purposes. It can be a testing ground for new writers, or a means to get the self insertion out of the system in hope of eventually moving onto writing non-Sue stories. Heck, they can even be written with the explicit intention of self-fulfillment. Just like you said, Sue fics can be fascinating. I have no problems with that if the author doesn't expect everyone to read it and leave glowing reviews praising the Sue to cloud nine.
Agree 100% about changing Snape's personality to fit the Sue. An OOC Snape is something that would get me to stop reading a story very fast.
This is excellent, Valis. I'm going to be looking out for Deeper Sues from now on ;)
(no subject)
Date: 2006-03-26 12:42 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-03-26 12:44 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-03-26 01:26 am (UTC)If you have your character knit every evening before going to bed, it could be quirky (it's a guy doing it); demonstrating her homely, old-fashioned tastes and habits (character development); used to show a unique way the character winds down from an extremely stressful life (character development, two-fold). Anything other than this kind of thing is just piling on details that don't matter. So she knits. Big deal.
One thing I hate are those character interviews that ask what your character's favorite beverage is and what color car they drive. The better question is why do they like Grape Crush or always drive a green car. Why does she keep a wild bird as a pet?
(no subject)
Date: 2006-03-26 01:43 am (UTC)Okay, I have to disagree here. Fandom is about wish-fulfillment. At its deep dark roots, it is about wanting to be a part of your favorite fandom so much that you create your own stories for it. And that's why Mary Sue runs rampant in fandom.
Also, it's not about improving writing skills for that vast majority of writers. We hang about in a select group of committed writers, and we've probably gravitated toward each other for that reason.
A lot of the rest you have here is great, though. It's given me a lot to think about. Thanks for taking the time to post this.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-03-26 02:45 am (UTC)As unwelcome a statement as that is, I think you're completely correct. :-) There are a crushing number of fanfic stories where the author is clearly writing down the story that's in her head where she (or her avatar) is the queen of the whole flippin' universe.
The reason why these stories aren't very enjoyable to read is probably simply that the story was written for the writer's enjoyment, and NOT the reader's enjoyment. That certainly seems to be the only explanation for writers who respond to criticism with "I can write whatever I waa-aaant! Neener-neener! You don't like it? Then don't read it!"
To that writer, the audience is apparently only there to adore her, just like the characters in her story are only there to adore the Sue.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-03-26 02:52 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-03-26 03:09 am (UTC)I'll take the whiney, "I'll write what I waaaaant it's fanFICTION!!!" over the up-and-coming, "You are too dumb to understand my superior writing ability!" which has become rampant in author "responses" to reviews. Why an author needs to respond at all to any review (beyond an occassional "thanks for reading" ) is beyond me anyway--"authors" who post demeaning lectures or rants defending indefensible writing is why I have't looked at any fic seriously in at least a year. Sorry, luv, if none of your readers/reviewers "get it", it's your problem, not theirs, and something, somewhere needs fixin'.
The Sues depicted in the OP just strike me as lazy. I'm sure the author is having lots and lots of fun, but she sure isn't working hard to include anyone else. And that's fine if that's the goal. Just don't expect readers to stick around.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-03-26 03:17 am (UTC)If you polled the big-name professional sci-fi/fantasy authors, I think you would discover that their motives for writing often aren't much different than why fanfic writers write. Most of the pros are creating stories about worlds that they wish they themselves could participate in. They're writing to fulfill a wish - a wish to entertain themselves, a wish to entertain others, a wish to pay the bills...;-)
(no subject)
Date: 2006-03-26 04:50 am (UTC)I love your writing, btw. It's so real! It connects so strongly.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-03-26 04:55 am (UTC)Hmm.
I wasn't really saying that it was a bad idea; it was more that I was saying that I've noticed this trend in these stories. I agree that an interesting hobby for a character can be a great asset to a story. It can also be distracting as hell.
The problem with Deeper Mary Sues is that the authors mistake 'write what you know' with 'preach what you believe'.
Yes! exactly! That is the scary thing. I once read a story where Snape suddenly delivers a four paragraph speech about why he doesn't care for Anne Rice. I am completely serious. In the author's notes she admitted that she had originally said the speech in a conversation with a friend, and thought it was so great that she just had to include it in a fic. But just because she thinks Anne Rice is teh ebil doesn't mean that Snape does, and it was quite laughable.
:) Thanks for commenting!
(no subject)
Date: 2006-03-26 04:56 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-03-26 04:57 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-03-26 05:02 am (UTC)I just kept seeing all of the Sues and thinking, yes, I see the four obvious ones (Sparkly, Bitchi, etc.), but there are some that I thought were Sues that didn't really fall into those categories. The more I looked at it, the more I noticed them, and I realized that most people don't even identify them as Sues. These stories receive plenty of praise, well-written praise even, and I then I had a flash of insight one night as I was thinking about the modern publishing industry...these Sues are very similar to many of the romance novel heroines in some ways.
OOC Snape makes me crazy. A little OOC isn't bad, actually, because I find it hard to believe that canon!Snape would be able to have a meaningful relationship in some ways. But when he's a pod person, completely undone simply because the heroine looked him in the eyes for once...sorry, no, I think he'd just use it as a chance to practice Legilimency. heh.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-03-26 05:05 am (UTC)*pets Tigger Tum ta Tum Tum Tum"
(no subject)
Date: 2006-03-26 05:09 am (UTC)I agree completely that at its core, it definitely is about being Han Solo's girlfriend in Star Wars. But still, that doesn't mean that it can't be about anything else. The list is open-ended because fandom is many things to many people. I like to hope that it's about improvement, but then again, I like to eat fried chicken with my bare hands. ;)
And you're right, my perspective is skewed because I do like to talk to other committed writers, exactly!
Glad you got a thought out of it. That makes my day!
(no subject)
Date: 2006-03-26 05:13 am (UTC)They're writing to fulfill a wish - a wish to entertain themselves, a wish to entertain others, a wish to pay the bills...;-)
Hee! Yes, exactly so.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-03-26 07:02 am (UTC)At the bottom level it goes like:
"Hermione adjusted her new belly top, which she had bought at Hot Topic over the summer, and turned up the volume of 'My Immortal' on her new i-pod. She'd become a big fan of Evanescance in the past year."
Of course, that's extreme and makes all but the most sugar addled teenybopper scream: "No bloody i-pods in 1997!" etc.
At a higher level, it includes references to restaurants, books, etc. Are they a bad thing? Not per se. Only if they intrude to the extent that they overtake the story.
When is an OFC not a Sue? To me, and this is personal view only, when she does not make me wish she'd die. If she seems to fit into the Potterverse she's fine. The best OFCs work as characters that you believe are canon, its just you skimmed the bit in canon where they were mentioned.
Sues just piss the reader off. One way or another.
I think there's nothing in the least wrong with self-insertion provided it serves a greater good of story, which is at least interesting to one who is not the self-insert. Essentially if the self-insertion is merely the author's attempt to shag
Alan RickmanSeverus Snape, I'm not going to be all that interested. If it is the author's attempt to shagAlan RickmanSeverus Snape, in the universe of a good story, I just might stick around.Everyone self-inserts to some extent - you need to, after all, it's about writing what you know, and so of course there are personal character traits put in there. Nothing wrong with that, again providing it doesn't overtake the agenda and shanghai the story.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-03-26 07:56 am (UTC)which is probably backasswards from most fanfic authors (g)).
All that said, what I wanted to elaborate on concerns your comments about authors utilizing personal information in creating characters. This is a fine line. I'm a big believer in "write what you know ... or research like hell." As a result, when I create characters for my fiction (not necessarily fanfic), they're built from tidbits about people I know and experiences I've had. For instance, I rarely write about places I've not been to personally (and one of the things I had to get used to in fanfic was writing about places I'd not been to personally, as I wasn't shelling out for a plane ticket to Westchester, New York for a story I wasn't getting an advance to write). I wouldn't create a character who was into fly fishing unless I were into flyfishing. How could I realistically describe it?
When creating original characters (fanfic or otherwise) authors should utilize what they know and have experienced, as it tends to make the characters more real. But you hit on the important difference at the end -- there's such a thing as too MUCH detail. This is one reason I tend not to use things like "character charts." Not only do I find them useless, I often find them to be OVER elaboration on details that usually aren't required for the story and wind up shoehorned in but authors who think they have to TELL the reader EVERYthing about the character. No, we don't need to know what brand of shampoo he uses unless it actually comes up in the story. And most stories won't require that information. Rather the details about the character that come up in the story are things that arise in the telling. I may jot them down somewhere to keep track ... but I find that I usually don't need to. They seem to stick in my head, as would details about a good friend. :-) (The same is true, btw, for extra details I give about canon characters above and beyond what's known from the source material.)
The creation of a good character involves VIVIDNESS and SPECIFICITY, but still as a sketch. Details are flavor, spice ... and like most spices, a little goes a long way. Tell a few things, not everything. Does the character have a passion for black jelly beans? Well, that's an interesting, specific and colorful detail. But we don't need to know he also likes salt-water taffey, Skittles, white chocolate Easter bunnies and blow pops -- unless a list of favorite candy is somehow required for a plot point. (g)
Beginning authors often engage in OVERkill by accident, in an attempt to create a well-rounded character. They wind up telling the reader more about the character than the reader knows even about her best friend. :-D And it's done in a heavy-handed (an uncreative) fashion, as lists or overwrought detail. Whimsy is a wondeful tool for a writer, particularly in description (of place or character). We should be specific and precise, but not all encompassing. Thumbnail sketch. That's what good character introduction entials, imo. :-)
(no subject)
Date: 2006-03-26 07:59 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-03-26 09:41 am (UTC)Oh my God, that's so frightening, yet so believable. (Not believable in terms of Snape saying it, but believable that someone would write a fic like that.)