Rant about non-hardcore HP fans

[valis2]

I know, it's hard to believe that they exist.

I'm pretty reluctant to talk about my HP obsession anywhere but online. Occasionally, however, it comes out, and people naturally ask questions or make comments. Most of the time it's really innocuous.

Sometimes it's just...argh.

There are two questions/attitudes that make me wince.

1) When someone who has read the books asks you a question with a tremendously complicated answer. For example, "Do you think Snape is good or evil?" Instant wince. It's one thing to answer that question from another fan, because there are a lot of phrases that are "shortcuts." You could bring up the Snape/Lily theory, and its permutations. You could bring up the Unbreakable Vow theory. The point is, the other fan has most likely heard all of those theories--and more. You don't have to go back and explain how Snape/Lily could have existed. I mean, it's one thing to ask something simple, but a huge question like the Snape Controversy? Ugh. I mean, I understand why they ask, but at the same time...it's very frustrating to try to encapsulate it.

2) This one actually irritates me a lot more. I am so sick of people snickering over the ages of the actors playing the Trio in the movies. "Oh, they're growing up!" (snicker, snicker) "Harry will be able to buy beer!" (ha, ha) "They're not going to be able to use Dan Radcliffe much longer, he's too old!" (guffaw) Recently I was out with my friend, and his father said something to the effect of the kids aging, and then pointed out that now that Dan had turned 21, how were they going to make the next movies (snicker, snicker). Yeah, I'm PMSing big time, and I said, "He actually just turned seventeen...and he's playing a fifteen year old in the movie. I don't see the problem."

The problem is, I think, that people who don't read the books suffer from the old-fashioned view that the kids are the same age through the whole series, like the Bobbsey Twins. Seriously. I once had a conversation with a friend who was horrified that people wrote stories where Harry had sex. "He's a little boy!" she said. I replied that he was sixteen in the latest book, and a lot of people lose their virginity around fifteen-sixteen, but it did not seem to make a difference at all. Not one bit. Her only idea of Harry Potter was of a little wizard boy of eleven.

JKR once said in an interview (I think) that she thought the Bobbsey Twins were unrealistic; they never seemed to age, and she wanted Harry to age in the books. I think she's accomplished that fabulously. Harry has matured and grown like a real boy in the books, becoming more emotionally complex with each book.

It just makes me crazy. I can point to Beverly Hills, 90210 and Grease...in those movies we have people from the ages of 21-28 playing teenagers, and it's accepted, generally. But here we have a seventeen year old playing a fifteen year old, not that big a difference, and yet it still seems to warrant mocking articles and commentary.

/rant

Comments

[aphrodeia.livejournal.com]

The thing with Daniel Radcliffe being too old has some merit if you look only at, say, POA and GOF. Puberty's a bitch. But now that both Radcliffe and Harry are past it, it's not going to be a huge issue.

Alan Rickman, on the other hand, is still terribly, terribly old. ;)

I usually ONLY talk about HP in person nowadays, with casual fans. The wank after HBP completely killed this fandom for me, really. I'm just not interested in talking about it with "fans" much anymore. Aww. :(

[valis2.livejournal.com]

Alan Rickman, on the other hand, is still terribly, terribly old. ;)

You will get no argument from me there. I really love the voice, and some of his mannerisms in the role, but I do wish that he weren't quite so far out of the age range...

The thing with Daniel Radcliffe being too old has some merit if you look only at, say, POA and GOF. Puberty's a bitch. But now that both Radcliffe and Harry are past it, it's not going to be a huge issue.

Yes, exactly! Why are they still writing articles on this? Why do people think it's so hilarious? I mean, I could see if he were still playing an eleven year old...that would be funny. But Harry is growing up, he's past puberty, as you say, it's a moot point now.

[atlantel.livejournal.com]

I don't like the movies... so, well. But I do think they're too old to play those kids or maybe they were too old in the previous movies. In fact I think they're too old because HP series is seen as a children series.

I only saw movie1 and movie2 (the latest disappointed me so much that I now don't want to see OOC movies) I do prefer the books.
I think Rickman is way too old to play Snape who is in his early 30s (35 in book5).

(was here via friends of friends page)

[lupintonks85.livejournal.com]

Alright I read the comments and I have to say I don't think the kids are too old at all. Emma for example just turned 17 in April so she was 16 for all of OOTP filming (which is a really, really good movie for this debate, too bad most people haven't seen it yet.) And Dan still looks like a teenager to be (he will be 18 in July) and Rupert is just extra so who cares about him (not me at least but for the record he is 19 or almost 19).

Alan Rickman is too old (he wasn't Chris' first choice for Snape, BTW). But I totally agree they couldn't have gotten a better voice.

And the people who have problems with Harry and sex just wait till they see the OOTP movie. Maybe they will lighten up a bit after seeing the Harry/Cho scene.

[(Anonymous)]

I've been thinking along sort of similar lines. I actually don't mind the two points you raised: re (1) I just take it as karmic payback for all the times I've had to make conversation with someone who is really into football or something else I don't know anything about - I've probably asked some difficult questions like that myself without realising it; also I just roll my eyes at so much fan discussion anyway - I have my theories and I don't much care to hear anyone else's :-). As for (2) I also don't care about the films that much (although I agree with you about the age thing - that shouldn't be an issue).

My issue is that irritatingly patronising tone in newspapers when they do articles about adult fans or "what's going to happen in Book 7". As if reading a book is freaky, but painting your face to watch a football match is perfectly acceptable.

[todayiamadaisy]

That was me, by the way. LJ somehow logged me out.

[zoepaleologa.livejournal.com]

Yesterday, I heard a group of colleagues talking 'Potter' in the kitchen... One said that Alan Rickman was perfect casting...

I shuddered and slunk off to a different floor to eat my sandwich and read the Guardian.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

The thing that's so annoying with the second thing is, like you said, the way people cling to this idea even when you point out it's irrational. I get why people might have in their mind that Harry's 11, but they need to get over that when the truth is pointed out. Instead people will insist and insist that it doesn't matter how old Harry is in the books, he's still a little boy. It doesn't matter that he's sexualized in the book, he's a-sexual. It doesn't matter that the characters in the movies are 15, the actors are still too old to play 11.

[josee-madalia.livejournal.com]

1) I usually avoid speaking to Muggles about HP. If they say something, I just nod and say something like "I think he's loyal to Dumbledore, but it's a very complicated answer implying many things"

2) To this I usually point out the fact that the girl playing Rizzo in Grease was THIRTY FIVE when she got the role... And she was still playing a 16 year-old.

That's one thing I always hated about the Baby Sitters' Club books, which I used to read a lot when I was a kid. They were always the same age, always went to the same school, etc. Heck they would even celebrate a girl's BIRTHDAY, and in the next book it said that they were still 12. WTF?!?

Actually, what I find most annoying is when I meet Muggles that go "Oh yeah, I'm a huge HP fan, I've seen all the movies!!" We met some of those at the GoF premiere, and me and my friends were rather mean by stating a loud conversation about how sad it was that Sirius was going to die in the next book. Quite Slytherinish, but then again, those people WERE being rude to us in the first place! :|

[alabastard.livejournal.com]

Rickman, argh ... such a voice, but far too old and heavy to pull off Snape. I just try to focus on the voice and the billowing robes.

The trio are aging along with the story, I find it quite natural, though I think they try too hard to prettify Hermione.

I haven't had any bad experiences with fans on hp outside of a few trying to start trouble in the cosplay world, which just makes me laugh, for it is cosPLAY, and I am a grown man with a life. Otherwise, I have found it to be quite fun, and literate people, always nice.

[tjwritter.livejournal.com]

I'm right there with ya babe...I'm on vacation now visiting family and none of them are Potter fans and what drives me crazy is they all have their little obsessions and things they follow and yet I'm the one that feels I have to keep my freak under raps.

The questions that they ask that require more time than they want to invest such as Snape's loyalty I simply answer with as few as words as possible. They are only being polite so I give them the simply, "he's a bad guy on the side of good" answer and then if they want more, they have to ask more questions. It would be like asking a Star Wars fan, "Hey, what's the deal with Vader?" (believe me, I know, I've done it!)

The age one...please. No one plays there right age, it's called ACTING...I think the illustrations in the books really got in the way from letting Harry grow up too. Up until OoTP Harry looked exactly the same in each book. Oddly enough, that was about the time they were making the movies as well, coincedence?

So, smile and be polite and then come here and we'll understand!!

[http://users.livejournal.com/_grainne_/]

I usually do the bland smile & private snicker/wince/blush when encountering casual HP discussions.

Although, I must say that the great Snape debate came in handy on a hike through bear-infested territory once with some unsuspecting casual fan family members. We were supposed to make lots of noise. Ranting works good for that. *g*

I hate the way the press deals with the Potter phenomenon. One minute they are bashing Radcliffe for being too old to play Potter and being shocked at fanfic depictions of the character; the next they are perving over Radcliffe in Equus and making totally inappropriate Potter-related puns. *sighs*

[valis2.livejournal.com]

though I think they try too hard to prettify Hermione.

I could not agree with you more. She's so pretty and full of girl power that she kind of undoes the subtle strengths of JKR's writing of that character.

The very worst is the Yule Ball, where she looked as pretty as always, but with her hair up. Nothing like the book, where she was so transformed that the boys didn't recognize her. In fact, Harry's surprise is way too overdone for the Emma!Hermione, in my taste, because she's so damned pretty already that this isn't much of a change.

Oops, I ranted again! *laughs*

[valis2.livejournal.com]

The movies have good points and bad. I love how they bring parts of the castle to life; I love the images, they help with my writing, they have a lot of mood and atmosphere. But when they get characterizations wrong (argh, shrieking Hermione) and when they get the plot strangely changed I'm just...well, meh.

And Rickman is too old. I love his voice, and mannerisms, but I do wonder very much what another actor could have done with the role. I mean, Lupin is supposed to look old because of what he's been through, but Rickman looks older, definitely.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm just thinking WTF? when people start snickering about how old the actors are. Honestly, they're fine, it never occurs to me while I'm watching that they look older than they're supposed to be.

Oh, Rickman wasn't the first choice? How fascinating! I wonder who he considered.

I am so wildly happy that they keep showing the kissing scene in the trailers. Maybe now people will realize that he's not an 11 year old, frozen in time!

[valis2.livejournal.com]

I also don't care about the films that much (although I agree with you about the age thing - that shouldn't be an issue).

Yeah, after GoF I kind of lost my passion for the movies (if I ever had it); now I just view them as spectacular fanvids, though not as canon-based as many fanvids (grin).

The age thing makes me mental. I think I just really lost it when my friend's father was all smirky about it; it wasn't him, it was just this attitude that I've heard from so many others...

My issue is that irritatingly patronising tone in newspapers when they do articles about adult fans or "what's going to happen in Book 7".

Yes, exactly. There's always this amused, detached kind of tone. *rolls eyes*

[valis2.livejournal.com]

Yes, flee, flee in terror! *laughs* Next they'll be talking about how cute eleven year old Harry is and how dare he be kissing girls. *shudders*

[valis2.livejournal.com]

Seriously, she was so disturbed at the thought that she actually shuddered. I kept pointing out that he was older in the books, and that people even have him come back as a Hogwarts instructor when he's in his late twenties/thirties...but it just didn't work. Her brain was so firmly wired to eleven-year-old-boy that it couldn't even entertain any other possibilities.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

I usually avoid speaking to Muggles about HP.

I really try to as well, it's a great policy. But then sometimes people who know me pretty well will know that I'm going to a con, and then they start asking questions...*sigh*

To this I usually point out the fact that the girl playing Rizzo in Grease was THIRTY FIVE when she got the role... And she was still playing a 16 year-old.

YES!!!!!!

Stockard Channing is her name.

Heck they would even celebrate a girl's BIRTHDAY, and in the next book it said that they were still 12. WTF?!?

Yes, I'm so glad that JKR decided to keep them aging in a realistic manner. It's wonderful! And it's not the norm for children's books, either.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

what drives me crazy is they all have their little obsessions and things they follow and yet I'm the one that feels I have to keep my freak under raps.

Y'know, if you talk to anyone, even the most straight-laced conservative, eventually you will find SOMETHING they like or obsess about that is outside the norm. ALWAYS.

HP is pretty tame compared to some interests. Definitely.

The age one...please. No one plays there right age, it's called ACTING..

Thank you!!!

[valis2.livejournal.com]

We were supposed to make lots of noise. Ranting works good for that. *g*

hee! I wish I could have heard that! Hilarious!

I hate the way the press deals with the Potter phenomenon. One minute they are bashing Radcliffe for being too old to play Potter and being shocked at fanfic depictions of the character; the next they are perving over Radcliffe in Equus and making totally inappropriate Potter-related puns. *sighs*

Oh, you have hit the nail directly on the head with that observation. Absolutely! They really take sides, depending on which part of the audience they want to titillate, I think.

*hugs*

[tjwritter.livejournal.com]

The last book release I took my niece who doesn't read HP to the local bookstore and she was teasing me the whole time and then when we went to buy it, I wound up buying her about three star wars books too...I told her she wasn't allowed to give me shit ever again!

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

I must be lucky or have especially geeky friends because all of those I talked about these subjets post HBP could totally follow most theories. So Snape's affiliation was easy to deal with ^^

I strongly dislike the look of most actors for the characters so I tend to disregard the movie utterly ^^ I must admit up to HBP, I had trouble thinking of them in sexual situations as well. I just wasn't interested because to me they were kids (no lust from me, rather than be horrified at the idea of them having sex ^^)

[aphrodeia.livejournal.com]

I haven't had any bad experiences with fans on hp outside of a few trying to start trouble in the cosplay world...

I never had problems, exactly, but as a Snapefan, I got tired of the melodramatic conniptions of far too many other female Snapefans. It was pretty over-the-top. I enjoy him as a character, he's certainly my favorite in the series, and I'm not going to revolt against JKR if he turns out to be as evil as he appears right now.

Blech.

[scarah2.livejournal.com]

1. Just think how Jo must feel. :D She's probably like 'GOD STFU NOOB' to all of us, hahaha. I think the opposite actually bugs me more. I meet someone who says they read the books, so I try to ask them something provocative and they have either no opinion or simply the most basic surface reading of it.

2. I agree people who haven't read the books think that the kids are supposed to stay the same age all the time and not get older. I explained to a friend who had only seen the movies that it's a coming of age story where they get older each year, culminating in their final year at Hogwarts and adulthood and he was like O RLY????? Yeah it's not the Simpsons. Also, halo thar Luke Perry. And Gabrielle what's her name, who was 32.

[lupintonks85.livejournal.com]

No, Tim Roth was the first choice for Snape but her turned it down to be in Plant of the Apes I think.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000619/

I got to see the movie already, and I have to saw I didn't think of Harry as an 11year old before but if I did after OOTP I couldn't have thought that anyway. And I don't even like Harry/Cho but the scene was great.

[alabastard.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that was really annoying, Hermione only worked in the first film, when she was all bushy haired and annoying, just as written. She could have been such an interesting character and not the pretty teen of the month.

[alabastard.livejournal.com]

Ohhh, I am seeing that. I really like Snape as a character, but some fans are going way overboard about him. They forget, they do not own him, JKR does, and what she decides is canon.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

I must be lucky or have especially geeky friends because all of those I talked about these subjets post HBP could totally follow most theories.

I really don't have almost any friends in RL who are this obsessed. I have one or two who have read the books, but no one who is able to nitpick to the same degree that I want to.

I must admit up to HBP, I had trouble thinking of them in sexual situations as well. I just wasn't interested because to me they were kids (no lust from me, rather than be horrified at the idea of them having sex ^^)

I never read Trio-fic, I don't really read anything with the kids (except for an occasional adult!Harry/Snape), and I'm just not interested in them as characters. It's all Snape Snape Snape with me. And a bit of Lupin. heh. So I do get where you're coming from...I wouldn't bother reading any story where they're sexual, but still, I think that as teenagers, they'd be experimenting, at the very least.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

I meet someone who says they read the books, so I try to ask them something provocative and they have either no opinion or simply the most basic surface reading of it.

After I saw PoA with my sister (who hasn't read any of the books), she said, "Who was that Peter guy?"

After I gave her five minutes of straight explanation, I realized that her eyes had glazed over. heh.

I agree people who haven't read the books think that the kids are supposed to stay the same age all the time and not get older.

They really are stuck in this weird "children's book" vortex and can't seem to get out. Any article that doesn't "get it" has this amused, snickering attitude that makes me crazy.

[kleio-the-muse.livejournal.com]

Hear, hear. I just had to sit through the Epic Movie and there was this poor, poor joke about the actors being far too old (the one paying Harry had a beard, Hermione was way, way pregnant and Ron looked like a middle-aged bloke that had just clocked off some factory in the north of England). My only hope is that people will come around once the last of the films hits the screen, 'cause it's one thing to tell them the boy's actually bloody nearly grown up, but once the see all the posters and whatnot, it's quite another.

Also, I can't understand people who tell you that they've read the books and "sort of" liked them, but can't really even remember what happened in the last one (this from a conversation I had only the other day). How can anyone "sort of" like them? What is this "sort of" they keep mentioning? Is it shorthand for abso-fucking-lutely massively or something?

[valis2.livejournal.com]

*snort* I'm telling you, I'm sick to death of the attitude, of the ridiculous idea that these are kids-only and strictly off-limits to adults. I mean, half of them are sold to adults! And this "sort of" thing is just because some people are so scared to actually say that they like them, because heaven forbid you actually admit to liking a kids' book! harumph.

I'm glad I haven't seen Epic Movie now. I'd probably have flown off the handle! heh.

[morricone1900.livejournal.com]

The Bobbsey Twins!! Now THERE's literature. ;)

What about Agatha Christie? Hercule Poirot was already retired from the police in the first novel that featured him (in about 1925 I think) and he was still pretty much the same age in the early 70s. Ditto for Miss Marple.

I guess the difference here is also that things like the Hardy Boys or Nancy Drew or Trixie Belden or Doc Savage or Inspector Alleyn or any number of detective series novels were meant to be series where the books were expected to be pretty much interchangeable -- a certain consistent context was built in because readers could presumably read any one in any order, and take years to get around to reading them all (for the record, I think I've finally run out of Agatha Christie novels to read -- I've read them all except that one set in Ancient Egypt).

Obviously not so with Ms. Rowling, who I suppose knew from the beginning that she was writing a finite arc.

But speaking of her, say, I've been meaning to ask you whether you thought Snape was Good or Evil!! ;)

You know, as more and more of my friends write less and less on livejournal, you have officially won the award for the most-postings-of-anyone-I-know-on-LJ !! I have to sift through all your posts on my friends page to look for those increasingly rare entries by nearly anybody else! :]

[morricone1900.livejournal.com]

Okay, here's a question: I read a press release about the score for the new HP film, and they appear to have hired a British TV composer with virtually no feature film credits, and they list the Chamber Orchestra of London (or some similar chamber music title) as the orchestra.

Does this mean they're running out of money (because obviously this is saving the producers a lot of $$)? I guess the director knows this composer and has worked with him before on smaller projects, but man, one of two things will be true: either it will be the worst score for a HP film so far, or someone completely obscure and unknown will suddenly become a major film composer on the basis of this film. That's how Patrick Doyle (who scored the last one) started, incidentally: he had worked for years in theatrical productions with and for Kenneth Branagh, and when Branagh got his big film chance with HENRY V, he hired Doyle (who I don't think had even done TV scores before that) to do the score. In Doyle's case, he wrote a magnificent score and became, nearly overnight, a sought-after and very fine major film composer. I wonder whether something like that will happen with this new HP film...or not? I'm skeptical, I have to admit. I'm expecting this to be the most forgettable HP score so far....but maybe I'll be wrong!

[jaelle-n-gilla.livejournal.com]

He's only seventeen? Wow, he looks older in the trailer (you see a bookworm fan here, not so much a movie fan. I don't keep track of the actors).
I don't like how they did his hair. They should have left it longer to make him appear younger.
I agree, 15 and 17 isn't that much of a difference, but as catsintheattic keeps pointing out to me - it's the age where a year or two matters most for a boy. They change from boyhood to manhood. It won't be that bad once he plays a 17 year-old. He can be 25 and it won't be a problem abny more. Wel... if they get him a new hair stylist.

I agree it's hard to discuss such matters with non-hardcore fans. I wouldn't consider myself a hardcore fan, really, and most of the theories pass me by, but I follow the plot closely and that makes it a bit easier.

I wish I even had someone to discuss with RL. Catsintheattic is about the only one I talk to about the HP universe. My boyfriend loves the books and movies, but only nods and says M-hm when I explain my pet theories and silently shakes his head. So I'd probably welcome people asking "is snape good or evil?" :-)

[valis2.livejournal.com]

A lot of people noticed the difference in the last movie, and I'm really wondering about the next one. I've read a few people who were disappointed in GoF's soundtrack, and I remember thinking that it didn't seem to be as unified as the others.

I'm really wondering about this, now. I'm sure that the movies are tremendously expensive to make, but it seems like a scary way to save money!

[valis2.livejournal.com]

I don't like how they did his hair. They should have left it longer to make him appear younger.

I could not agree more. I really liked the shaggy hairdos from the last film, very much.

I agree, 15 and 17 isn't that much of a difference, but as catsintheattic keeps pointing out to me - it's the age where a year or two matters most for a boy.

They are outpacing the films, for certain, but I don't think it will make enough difference in the end. I think it's shocking to non-fans because they don't realize that the children age in the book.

I wish I even had someone to discuss with RL.

Oh, me too! So often I end up hiding the fact that I like the books because I know the attitude most people have about it.