valis2: Stone lion face (Deathly hallows)
[personal profile] valis2
Yeah, probably useless at this point, but still.

Last week I was listening to [livejournal.com profile] snapecast episode 16 (which was released last spring, before DH hit, yeah, I'm still catching up in a weird way--I missed a few episodes because they were mislabeled in my mp3 player). The snarky chapters portion really made me pause and rewind.

In the segment, [livejournal.com profile] chaeche mentioned her fear that JKR would only write 20 pages about Snape and we'd find out precious little else about him. Also, either Chaeche or someone else in the segment mentioned that she expected JKR to pull something really amazing out of her bag of tricks, because she's so clever. (This is very paraphrased, as I don't have my mp3 player in front of me right now.)

Oddly enough, the second part is something I really expected. Each book ended in such a novel manner that I really thought the final ending was going to be something marvelous, some tricksy, astonishing sleight of hand that would set the fandom aflame.

You see, right from PoA (and even more so with GoF) I had this feeling about JKR and her mysteries.

Mystery authors generally write three different kinds of mysteries. 1) The murderer is someone you're introduced to in the start. 2) The murderer is someone who comes onstage somewhere around halfway through. 3) The murderer is someone who pops up out of nowhere in the last five pages.

#3 is not as common as the first two. Readers aren't very fond of it, you see. And as soon as I read PoA, I knew that JKR was inordinately fond of #3. Though not really in terms of finding out the identity of the murderer--more in terms of solving the mystery or mysteries. She repeats this formula again and again. She plants quite a few red herrings. A good example is Barty Crouch Jr's funeral in PoA, which is why I was so completely blindsided by Barty impersonating Moody. When I reread the books, I do notice that the clues are there, but the first time through I never guessed any of the endings. Based on what the reader knows, it's really difficult to guess some of the mysteries--especially the whys and whodunits.

This is partly due to the fact that she withholds information. Which is also a reason that I think the books were so intriguing--but I digress.

I honestly expected her to follow the same formula, but leave the biggest "punch" for last. Like, it would end with a bang like usual, but it would be even a huger bang, because this would take all seven books and transform them into one big mystery. This was reinforced by an interview where JKR mentioned that she hadn't seen anyone guess what she was going to do. I had numerous conversations with people, and in the end I just assumed that it would be a pretty amazing revelation. I mean, we were really swimming in a sea of theories, so if no one had guessed, then it had to be pretty brilliant, and based on something we hardly knew.

Unfortunately, Chaeche was quite the Trelawney, and her unwitting words about Snape came true, in a sense. We did learn about his life (the very barest bones), but otherwise, we found out...well...precious little else. That was definitely a disappointment. Snape was always the most intriguing character for me, and I was very much hoping that Harry's "personal" grudge with him would end spectacularly. Instead, we have a strangely subdued Harry, who never seems to get that angry about Snape. Plus, we have a very condensed version of Snape's backstory, and we see little of him in the rest of the story.

It's been ten months now, and when I think about the book, a few things rise to the top quickly.

There were some really haunting moments. Scenes where I literally put the book down and ran around the apartment like an idjit. The scene where Ron destroys the Horcrux had me nearly crawling up the walls. The scene where Kingsley's Patronus warns everybody that the Ministry is coming. There were so many great moments that I really wholeheartedly enjoyed.

But then there was the camping. And the messy slapstick. And the camping. And the lack of Snape. And the camping. And the authorial shortcuts--getting rid of Hedwig (which sidesteps a few problems), Hermione's beaded bag, the wholesale revision of Secret Keeping, etc.

And that brings me to the next issue. You see, we were kept in the dark for much of the series by having a limited narrator, someone who was raised by Muggles and kept in the dark about magic, and had to have magic and wizarding society explained to him. JKR knows exactly how to ratchet up the tension: leave out some of the details. Which she did, and played up by having question and answer appearances with fans. She left out enough that a large section of fandom became theorists. In fact, that's part of what's gone from fandom; the theories. We have little need for them any longer. I miss the essays, the pondering, the clues. I even miss the crack!theories. It feels like a huge part of the HP fandom experience has vanished.

I'm still surprised at the Snily, in a way. JKR's thought that no one had guessed where she was going was the ultimate red herring, and I should have known better, because how could she have known all of the theories we generated? Still, there were a lot of fans who guessed Snily. And I remember reading "Snape's Worst Memory" and thinking, this is it? Being upside down in front of tormentors? Isn't this all in a day's work for him at this point? So then I thought that either Harry had interrupted it before it went further, or that calling Lily a Mudblood was what made it so awful for Snape. (Seeing the OotP film made me think that it was the former, as the latter wasn't present in the film.)

I have started thinking of my personal fandom experience in a different manner. I view the time between OotP and HBP as a Golden Age of fandom, in a way; certainly we had lots of new information to use, new characters, and lots of open space to write in the margins. I view the time between HBP and DH as a Silver Age. Some loose ends were tied up, and creativity was necessary to write certain pairings. But in all, it was still a time of blooming. Of course, I come to this viewpoint from being a Snape fan and entering the fandom in November, 2003. I'm certain that other fans have their own timeline.

Overall, after spending time thinking about it, and talking to other fen, I've really revised my opinion of the books. I used to say, over and over, that they were definitely more mature and more adult; but, having really thought about it, I have revised my opinion. They straddle a line, but they never really cross over one way or the other. I went to a great lecture at Prophecy about how JKR combines kid's lit and adult lit, and I really think that the speaker was right on target. JKR writes about Spellotape and names her werewolf characters Lupin and Fenrir, for example. And the whole Fiendfyre scene, and Malfoy getting punched in the face...these scenes felt very kid-oriented and kind of slapstick-y to me.

When it comes down to it, I can't forget what I wrote in my LJ after I read it. This book was not written for us, the obsessed fen. It was written for the millions of kids and adults who casually enjoyed the series. This isn't meant to sound like, "Boo-hoo, us big fans were mistreated," or anything like that. It's just that I think I lost perspective on the way. I immersed myself so much in the world and read so much amazing fanfic and saw so much amazing fanart that her world was broadened and enriched, and when I returned to the source for what I felt would be the triumphant, brilliant ending, I felt a little let down. Yes, the book was definitely the definitive end to the series; it explained what it need to explained, and parts of the journey were terrific. Please don't think that I don't appreciate its strengths. I'm just whining about the fact that my expectations were pumped so high--which is entirely my own fault.

Yeah, I know, total tl;dr. But I've had these thoughts rattling in my head for a while and I needed to get them out. Thanks for reading.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-15 05:12 pm (UTC)
ext_2023: (Default)
From: [identity profile] etrangere.livejournal.com
Very interesting post.

I agree with you about JKR straddling the line but never going beyond. There are YA novels which I think work this much better (I'm very fond of Jonathan Stroud for one).

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-15 05:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] valis2.livejournal.com
I think she never really makes any book wholly adult or wholly meant for kids. It's a tricky line to maneuver, and I was saddest when we were treated to the strange broomstick rescue mission at the end of DH, and then later when we see Draco, he's exactly the same as he was in the first book--and Ron punches him. A very odd end, I thought, but then I realized--she has to satisfy everyone. She has to have the slapstick and the character who likes to bite children's faces.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-15 05:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] artystone.livejournal.com
I view the time between OotP and HBP as a Golden Age of fandom, in a way; certainly we had lots of new information to use, new characters, and lots of open space to write in the margins. I view the time between HBP and DH as a Silver Age.

Which would make post-DH the dark ages.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-15 06:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] valis2.livejournal.com
ahahaha!!! YES!

As always, you cut right to the heart of the matter. lol!!

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-16 03:06 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] artystone.livejournal.com
The saddest thing about the DH phenomenon was that we all went thought this huge build up, and were all excited about the unveiling and were all excited about finding out new stuff and getting the answer to life, the universe and everything...

...then...*fizzle*

The fandom silence 5 minutes after publication was deafening.

(Except on F_W where they're still trying to "keep the dream alive.")

It appeared to me as if everyone read it, blinked a couple of times, thought, "Oh...ok then," and shelved the thing for good.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-16 09:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] valis2.livejournal.com
It appeared to me as if everyone read it, blinked a couple of times, thought, "Oh...ok then," and shelved the thing for good.

I really thought we'd be caught up in a frenetic "YES!" or a screaming "NO!"

Not this rather sad denouement. Ugh.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-15 05:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tudorpot.livejournal.com
very thoughtful commentary- appreciated muchly

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-15 06:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] valis2.livejournal.com
Oh, hooray! I'm glad you enjoyed.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-15 06:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] minisinoo.livejournal.com
Very interesting. And I'm inclined to agree with you about the final book being written for the "other" fans. For isntance, there were a lot of things about it that just frustrated me. (And I'm not even a Snape fan, so I didn't particularly miss him, although I think he is one of the best of the characters she created, along with Dumbledore). But my SON, the one who originally got me into the series in the first place -- he loved it, including the awful epilogue. (Well, awful to me, but perfect for kids because it answered THEIR questions, not necessarily the grown-up's.) He was fine with it. I have heard some older, but not immersed fans, say they got bored with the camping too, btw, but mostly, they liked it.

(Btw, the one thing I REALLY, really thought she was going to do ... and she didn't -- make one of the "inner circle" a traitor. I was looking for McGonagall to turn out to be the 'bad guy' all along. That had seemed to be a pattern for her w/ teachers in books 1 and 4, especially. So I expected it in 7, and didn't get it. Perhaps we could look on Snape turning out to be 'good' as the reversal of that, but I just never bought into the idea that he was BAD, so that was no revelation at all -- pre-book hype or not. I always expected him to be good, or at least on the side of the angels, just as in book 1, and was really expecting a turncoat of the other sort.)

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-15 07:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] valis2.livejournal.com
I'm inclined to agree with you about the final book being written for the "other" fans.

That really seems to be the case, at least to me. And it makes sense--which fans do you want to please, the millions of children who earnestly ask you the same questions over and over again at every public get-together, or the three fans who want to know Lupin's middle name?

The few casual fans I've talked to seemed satisfied with the ending, and not much more.

Btw, the one thing I REALLY, really thought she was going to do ... and she didn't -- make one of the "inner circle" a traitor.

I kind of expected it, too--she made a lot of parallels throughout the series, and I totally thought we'd have a next-gen Pettigrew.

And, speaking of Pettigrew, man, that seemed like a really hurried and strange end, didn't it? Honestly, after I read it, I called someone who hadn't read it yet, and described how he died, and we had such a laugh over how lame it was. I was always intrigued with him, and why he switched ([livejournal.com profile] webbapettigrew really made me think about him as a character) and I always expected a little bit more.

I think she left so much out, and we all put together so much on our own, that nothing she could have done would have satisfied. And to not have some sort of really super unexpected twist...well, I don't know, I guess it's all because I devoured so much fanfic, and I read so many fantastic scenarios. haha! Fanfic ruined my fan experience! lol.
From: [identity profile] bronze-ribbons.livejournal.com
I immersed myself so much in the world and read so much amazing fanfic and saw so much amazing fanart that her world was broadened and enriched, and when I returned to the source for what I felt would be the triumphant, brilliant ending, I felt a little let down.

Yes. Yes, yes, yes. That articulates my own feelings almost exactly - except that I ended up feeling a LOT let down, because after teaching the JKR-DLS course, I'd convinced myself that she'd thought through everything very carefully, and that she'd take as much time as she needed to craft the best book possible (as Sayers would have done). And that didn't happen, IMNSHO. There are indeed some memorable moments in the book (and my favorite line from the whole series comes from one of my least-favorite scenes - Snape's "Lately, only those I could not save"), and I do get that she was ultimately writing for a less critical audience than close-reading fandom - but I also feel that she had intimated (through her earlier interviews) that she was in fact writing for us as well, from the things she had said about Sayers and about the craft of writing.

So, for me, DH is a profound disappointment because I feel that the potential for a far better, deeper, more cohesive and coherent book was there, and I honestly find it heartbreaking that DH got rushed out instead. ...and I know some people think it's uncool to judge a book against its potential instead accepting it for what it actually is, but I personally think it's just as valid as listening to a recital and concluding that the performer was having an off night, or attempting a piece outside of his/her range. *sigh*

[This observation brought to you in part from last night's "Jam for the Lamb" - I'm dependent on the local coffee shop for online access at the moment, and last night there was a kid attempting to wow the crowd with a set of acoustic Christian punk rock. He was enthusiastic, earnest, and awful - I felt sorry for him, but I was also literally hiding my mouth behind my hand because I was trying not to laugh at him every time he jumped into the air shouting "Woo-hoo!" Which is the sort of move that works only if you have the charisma of Bon Jovi. Which the kid didn't. But I digress.]

Anyhow, these days, I'm having to explain to a lot of people in RL (since I haven't kept my fandom activities a secret) that I'm ultimately much more a fan of the fandom than the books. It's a concept that many of them find strange and twisted (if not outright unacceptable - how dare I enjoy derivative works more than the original?), but it happens to be the truth about what I feel. So, on the one hand, I doubt I'll ever reread the books again, but on the other, I still find myself enjoying next-gen and AU fic quite a bit. And I think part of the appeal to me is that the writers of those fics have had to analyze canon very closely (in order for their own allusions to and departures from it to stay relevant), and often end up focusing on interpersonal dynamics that canon didn't end up addressing or exploring in depth. Which, for me, continues the possibility and excitement of revelation that meta and pre-DH futurefic used to provide.
From: [identity profile] valis2.livejournal.com
A teal deer from you is much treasured, my friend. ;)

I ended up feeling a LOT let down, because...I'd convinced myself that she'd thought through everything very carefully, and that she'd take as much time as she needed to craft the best book possible

I forgot to mention in the entry that I did feel like the book felt...hurried. Not overly so--I mean, it is a huge book, still. But just in the plot, and in the strange ending scenes.

I have this checkpoint I use for some of my writing that I call the Stand back and look rule. Do the actions of the characters make as much sense when you stand back and look at them from a disinterested character's POV? And using that rule of thumb, some of the events at the finale are a bit strange. Like Harry running off to look in a Pensieve when everyone is dying...hmm. Maybe that's why JKR had that ludicrous "pause" in the action, which I found to be strange, if you consider Voldemort's POV. In fact, the entire last book is a bit strange from a disinterested POV. Why would Voldemort wait until now to do this easy swish-n-flick Imperius of the Minister? Can Dumbledore's death really have made it that easy? I don't know, sometimes I really wonder about the logic involved. It must be difficult to put together a really huge book like this with such an open-ended magic system--sometimes I just think, can't they cast [x] and be done with this?

So, for me, DH is a profound disappointment because I feel that the potential for a far better, deeper, more cohesive and coherent book was there, and I honestly find it heartbreaking that DH got rushed out instead.

After hearing some incredible presentations by many, many very interesting people at different cons, I have to say that I agree with you--the potential was there. So many people were able to infer so much from her stories.

Then again, it reminds me of Betty and Barney Hill, who drew a star system after they said they'd been abducted by aliens. Given that the stars are infinite, someone, some day, would be able to "find" that particular system based on the drawing. (Sure enough, it happened recently.) If you look far enough into the book, you can see whatever you want to see. That aside, though, from all appearances she was writing a very amazing series, and I really thought that when she snapped the pieces together we'd see something amazing. Some sort of fantastic star system. But that didn't seem to happen, at least for me, and though I enjoyed the books, and am very glad to have read them, it still has the sting of dissatisfaction.

Anyhow, these days, I'm having to explain to a lot of people in RL (since I haven't kept my fandom activities a secret) that I'm ultimately much more a fan of the fandom than the books.

Yes, exactly! I'm here for the fandom, much more than the source. I really love the people I've met here, and I feel like I've found a very fun community.

So, on the one hand, I doubt I'll ever reread the books again, but on the other, I still find myself enjoying next-gen and AU fic quite a bit.

I have been thinking of doing one last read-through. Simply because, now that I know a bit of Snape's backstory, some things do make more sense, and I love it when stuff resonates when you read it. For example, this makes Snape's hatred of Sirius much more reasonable--he thought Sirius was the traitorous Secret Keeper. The control he exerted not to slip his hand and start screaming about the real reason he hated Sirius--oooh, shivers!

I'm glad you're sticking around--I love your writing so much, and I love conversing with you. *giant hugs*

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-15 07:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] belluthien.livejournal.com
Thanks for sharing.

I must say, your thoughts and feelings greatly mirror my own.

I did not give it much thought, after it was over, other than to think I felt very let down, and I would likely never re-read the series. Her fictional reality was way more shallow than the hopes I had allowed to blossom in my heart.
y

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-15 07:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] valis2.livejournal.com
I've been thinking of rereading the series one last time--I do feel like there will be some amazing moments where the backstory illuminates the story at hand, such as the true reason for Snape's hatred of Black and why he wanted him Kissed so very badly.

Her fictional reality was way more shallow than the hopes I had allowed to blossom in my heart.

That's really an interesting way to put it.

I truly expected the rabbit being pulled out of the wizard's hat to be something quite splendiferous. It's only a rabbit, though, and even though I appreciate it for what it is (I mean, how many stories could draw me in like this, and how many things have inspired me to write 200K+ words?! Seriously), I still wish it had been a bit more awesome. Ah, emo!Valis yet again, lol!

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-15 10:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] belluthien.livejournal.com
I came in late in the whole game. I think I started reading the books in January 2006. I only started because I saw pieces of the movies that my kids were watching, and kept asking, "Who's that guy? Is he good, or bad?" when Snape would show up. ;p

Then, as I read, I scoured the pages for traces of Snape, and re-read sections, and went over them over and over again... So, I've re-read all I will ever do as I went through the series. (I may be slightly bitter about the whole thing, but, that's the way things fall sometimes.)

I think the true reason Snape wanted Black Kissed was because, at the time, he thought Black was the reason Lily got killed. His motivations matched Harry's.

Hheh. Yeah, I expected, or hoped for, something splendiferous to come out of that hat in the end. Alas, it was a rabbit, a nice rabbit, at that, but still, just a rabbit.

Still, it inspired quite a few of us, one way or another. I'm with you in wishing it would have been a bit more awesome.

Ah! emo!Valis and emo!Belluthien need to share hugs.
y

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-15 11:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] valis2.livejournal.com
Still, it inspired quite a few of us, one way or another. I'm with you in wishing it would have been a bit more awesome.

Yes, exactly. I really thought we'd be seeing a masterpiece, but it really is just the end of an entertaining series.

Ah! emo!Valis and emo!Belluthien need to share hugs.

*hugs!!*

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-15 07:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] melusinahp.livejournal.com
Sigh. When I'm honest with myself, which I'm allowing myself to be more and more lately as I grow to dislike JKR more and more, I know that I was very disappointed with a lot of aspects of DH. There were bits I loved so much-- Harry's walk into the forest, learning about Regulus, the Fiendfyre scene *glares at you*.

But I also thought the story would be much more complex and surprising and creative. My theory, is that she had originally planned something bigger and better, but was completely burned out by the time she got to DH. I think she was burnt out by the time she got to HBP, actually.

It's depressing. But at least we have fanfiction.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-15 07:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] valis2.livejournal.com
There were bits I loved so much-- Harry's walk into the forest, learning about Regulus, the Fiendfyre scene *glares at you*.

hee!! It's good that Goyle had his moment, I suppose. Er, it was Goyle, wasn't it? That's the sad thing--I can't even remember at this point.

But I also thought the story would be much more complex and surprising and creative. My theory, is that she had originally planned something bigger and better, but was completely burned out by the time she got to DH. I think she was burnt out by the time she got to HBP, actually.

I definitely think that there is a hurried aspect to the book, and I think that perhaps a more forceful editor could have helped with some of the crawling portions. I think you have a good point--I mean, really, who can live up to that kind of hype after writing this story for so long? I would have wanted to chuck Harry out a window after just a few years with him, honestly. ha!

It's depressing. But at least we have fanfiction.

Thank goodness for that! *holds tightly to the fan-created experience*

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-15 08:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] scatteredlogic.livejournal.com
You've summed up a great deal of my feelings about DH. I remember closing the book and thinking, "That's it?" I was expecting something spectacular rather than a book that ultimately felt slap-dash, but that's my own fault.

~points up~ I agree with bronze_ribbons. I'm more a fan of fandom now. JKR has spoken, and her version is official. But fandom allows me to continue writing/reading about my favorite characters, no matter what their official status. ;)

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-15 08:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] valis2.livejournal.com
Yes, fandom is where I dock my ship now, definitely. I remember closing the book and having the same reaction. In fact, I was rather glum. The spectral forms of the adults was a really poignant moment, but a lot of the other ending moments left me cold. I still enjoy the series, definitely--but I have to say that there are fanfics I adore. Love, even.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-15 09:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] go-back-chief.livejournal.com
Do you really think the revelation of Snape/Lily was the one thing she meant when she talked about "the heart of it all" the thing she hadn't seen anyone guess? I find that hard to believe, even though I realise that she's seen much less than any of us, because this theory was so popular so spread out, I heard about it even before I'd even lurked my first HP board. Not that I have many other ideas of what "the heart of it" could be, but... I think it's entirely possible she meant something like the deathly hallows, which really would be an example of the third kind of mystery. On the other hand it is a bit hard for me to believe she planned that particular storyline all along, but she says she did, so maybe it was supposed to be the "big thing"?

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-16 12:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] valis2.livejournal.com
Y'know, that's a great question. And I almost don't know--I keep thinking that the Snily is the heart of several things, such as why Harry's eyes are so damned important. But you're right, she could have meant the Hallows, which were kind of interesting and unique, but not exactly breathtaking.

As far as the Scar!crux, I mean, everyone was guessing that within minutes of HBP, so that was pretty much out there; I mean, I swear I've read fanfic that goes into the same territory as the book did, with Harry & Voldemort facing off and going through some sort of duel.

I really should have friended you ages ago. Blame my intense procrastination skills. Thanks for commenting!!

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-15 10:24 pm (UTC)
ext_13463: (Need coffee....)
From: [identity profile] xterm.livejournal.com
er.. sorry for the re-post... bad coding.. sorry


I immersed myself so much in the world and read so much amazing fanfic and saw so much amazing fanart that her world was broadened and enriched, and when I returned to the source for what I felt would be the triumphant, brilliant ending, I felt a little let down.

Well put!!

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-16 12:14 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] valis2.livejournal.com
Re-post? You must have deleted it, I don't see it. ;)

Aw, thanks! *hugs*

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-16 12:18 am (UTC)
todayiamadaisy: (Default)
From: [personal profile] todayiamadaisy
I've been thinking about rereading DH too. My memory is similar to yours: loved some moments, was disappointed with others. I see myself in a kind of no fan's land: more than a casual reader, but not really part of fandom, so any over-high expectations were entirely my own doing, rather than reading too many theories. I put it down to "last book syndrome": I hated the last book of Narnia when I read it all those years ago, and I wasn't thrilled by the final Lemony Snicket either.

This book was not written for us, the obsessed fen. It was written for the millions of kids and adults who casually enjoyed the series.

That's interesting. I've always felt that from GoF onwards, JKR's writing was influenced by fandom (perhaps not "fandom", but by the questions fans were asking). Perhaps not deliberately, but as a kind of unconscious response. A minor example: Fans are shipping Sirius/Remus? Well, here's Sirius's teenage bedroom, complete with girlie pictures.

I think the first three are the "undiluted" HP, before the world went went crazy for Harry; the books that come after were written with everyone watching. I'd love to know what the series would been like if it never became a phenomenon.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-16 01:56 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] valis2.livejournal.com
I see myself in a kind of no fan's land: more than a casual reader, but not really part of fandom, so any over-high expectations were entirely my own doing, rather than reading too many theories.

I love fandom, I love fanfiction, and all of the tremendously fun theorizing about what would happen was a blast. I miss it, honestly. I was quite excited to see what she would actually do.

I've always felt that from GoF onwards, JKR's writing was influenced by fandom (perhaps not "fandom", but by the questions fans were asking). Perhaps not deliberately, but as a kind of unconscious response.

Y'know, you really have a very good point here. I had that feeling sometimes--that she had been upset about what she had heard, and wrote things in specifically to prevent more criticism/unfounded imaginings.

It reminds me of the novel Pamela, or Virtue, Rewarded. The man who wrote it, Samuel Richardson, was a man of faith, and he set out to deliver a very strong message. Unfortunately, he was a bit too earnest, and though the book was tremendously popular with the public, it was derided throughout the educated world. Fielding even wrote a parody of it called "Shamela" which was hilarious.

Richardson was so horrified that he actually rewrote it so that people would understand that Pamela was a very devout woman indeed.

So perhaps JKR did the same thing--not wanting her characters to be perceived in the "wrong" manner, she made it very clear that Sirius was straight. Straight, I tell you! Straight!!

I think the first three are the "undiluted" HP, before the world went went crazy for Harry; the books that come after were written with everyone watching. I'd love to know what the series would been like if it never became a phenomenon.

Now that would be utterly fascinating.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-16 02:41 am (UTC)
todayiamadaisy: (Default)
From: [personal profile] todayiamadaisy
not wanting her characters to be perceived in the "wrong" manner, she made it very clear that Sirius was straight

I find it interesting that on the one hand JKR is tolerant (even supportive) of fan works, but on the other she is quite prescriptive of how her characters are perceived even beyond the boundaries of the story. She's meeting fan demand with both those reactions, which is nice of her, but it's an interesting pair of reactions.

She's in such a unique position, really. Only Lord of the Rings has a similarly sized obsessive fanbase, and Tolkein is long dead. He didn't live in the internet age or have people ask if Boromir was hot or if Gandalf was really Sam from the future. :-)

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-16 03:32 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] valis2.livejournal.com
I find it interesting that on the one hand JKR is tolerant (even supportive) of fan works, but on the other she is quite prescriptive of how her characters are perceived even beyond the boundaries of the story. She's meeting fan demand with both those reactions, which is nice of her, but it's an interesting pair of reactions.

Absolutely! I am absolutely astonished at how open she's left the field for us, and yet at the same time, she sometimes shuts things down so quickly...I am remembering poor Winky, who has been damned to a lush's life by a JKR interview. Heh. I mean, really, not that I am going to set up a protest over this, but it did seem odd that JKR answered that one in that manner...

He didn't live in the internet age or have people ask if Boromir was hot or if Gandalf was really Sam from the future. :-)

hahaha!! Yes, he's probably rolling over in his grave as we speak.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-16 01:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] logospilgrim.livejournal.com
I loved reading your thoughts, my dearest one, though I... well, I was satisfied with Deathly Hallows. Indeed I would say that it fulfilled my heart's desire in the most vital of respects! I had only one major expectation.

*hides underneath desk*

;-)

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-16 02:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] valis2.livejournal.com
I loved reading your thoughts

Thank goodness that someone does! ;)

I... well, I was satisfied with Deathly Hallows. Indeed I would say that it fulfilled my heart's desire in the most vital of respects!

I have to say, once I read it, I was actually happy that Snape had been redeemed. I was a bit worried that he would be turned into some sort of terrible parody of a villain, and I was incredibly relieved that he did turn out to be a good guy, though flawed.

(I do remember thinking that you would be relieved as well, ha! Though you had less doubt than any of us, I'm certain.)

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-16 02:22 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] logospilgrim.livejournal.com
Here is an excerpt from my silly book, which exactly captures my feelings about the matter...

When I wrote and spoke about Professor Snape, I emphasized that despite his many faults, he had changed his ways at a fundamental level. If Dumbledore had been wrong to trust him, it would have meant that the Harry Potter story was nothing more than an empty celebration of nihilistic hatred. I could personally come to no other conclusion. By advocating for Snape’s goodness, I was advocating for Goodness itself.

I therefore greeted the revelations contained in Deathly Hallows with no small measure of jubilation. Exactly as I had argued, Snape’s sacrifices were a testimony to the love that had indeed resided in his heart. The stark evidence of his shortcomings did not somehow exclude him from Love’s healing presence.


My heart's desire was that he would "love to the end" -which is what he did. I remember driving to Vespers, a bit overwhelmed at the thought that Metropolitan Herman would be there, and knowing that Snape had sacrificed himself (I did not read the "carpet copy," but I was aware of the key details). Then "Amazing Grace" came on the radio, and I started to weep *laughs*

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-16 03:34 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] valis2.livejournal.com
My heart's desire was that he would "love to the end" -which is what he did.

Very, very true. I think that in the end it did transform him, in a way...ah, Severus, we hardly knew ye. ;)

(And your words are not silly, my dear--they are really wonderful, highly literate, and quite absorbing.)

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-17 08:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] julian-black.livejournal.com
...I was actually happy that Snape had been redeemed. I was a bit worried that he would be turned into some sort of terrible parody of a villain...

See, I had absolutely no doubts he was working for the right side and would be redeemed--none.

But I was a bit worried that he would turn out to be too good--that somehow, in the end, JKR would write him as a much better person than he had been shown to be all along--as if he'd never tormented Neville, or made the "I see no difference" remark about Hermione's teeth, or singled out ickle firstie Harry for ridicule on his very first day in class. Fandom has always done its best to gloss over Snape's most loathesome personal qualities, so I was afraid his creator might, too.

I always knew Snape was extremely brave, intelligent and quick-witted, and that despite all appearances he was working for the right side. I knew it even when he killed Dumbledore--I think I had my own version of the "Loyal Snape mercy-kills DD (who is already dying from the ring's curse) to maintain his cover with Voldemort" theory figured out within an hour of finishing HBP.

But I also knew that he was an emotionally stunted, vengeful, petty little asshole, and that no amount of excuse-making for him was going to explain that away.

"Sure, he's a bastard--but he's our bastard" was my take on him. He was a nasty person on a mundane, ego-driven level, but on a deeper level he was doing the right thing.

So going into DH, I wanted to know how JKR was going to reconcile those two sides of him. And since I absolutely knew Snape was loyal, and that was going to be redeemed, my main concern was how she was going to deal with Snape-the-asshole. Could she manage to walk that line, to show him as fundamentally good and redeemable, without sugar-coating or explaining away his worst qualities?

And she did it.

Post-DH, I've seen a few people complain that Snape either didn't get redeemed "enough", or didn't get redeemed at all--which just makes me shake my head and wonder what books they were reading.

I saw Severus Snape's moment of redemption occurring right after Lily's death when he was in Dumbledore's office, consumed by the pain of remorse, wanting to die. He could have offed himself (and, I would argue, in a sense he did die with Lily). He could have lashed out against Voldemort in a fever of rage and grief (and been killed for it). But instead, he agreed to do anything--anything--to make Lily's sacrifice of her own life worth it, in order to atone for his role in her death.

Whether he was ultimately redeemed in Harry Potter's eyes (or Dumbledore's, or the wizarding world's), was irrelevant. Snape's redemption began in that ugly, terrible moment of overwhelming guilt, shame and remorse. He wanted to die then, but instead agreed to live in order that Lily's death not be in vain. And while the single-minded love for Lily that motivated Snape may seem selfish and limited--especially when contrasted with the sort of great universal love that enabled Harry to go face Voldemort at the certain cost of his own life--it was everything he had to offer, and he offered it willingly (sort of like the widow's mite).

---

Okay, I was giving myself a haircut and took a break to address this question. And now it's 1:35 and the post office closes at 3:00 and I only have the hair on one side of my head cut. So I'd better quit discussing Snape and go finish giving myself a trim so I can mail packages out today...

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-18 02:30 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] valis2.livejournal.com
See, I had absolutely no doubts he was working for the right side and would be redeemed--none.

I had my doubts. The scenario I though was most plausible was that he would be a baddie through the book, sort of a ghost-Snape-walking, dispensing badness that Harry would find out about on the front page of the Prophet. And then at the end he'd have a change of heart. And then probably die.

But then I kept wondering about what would happen, and I kept see-sawing back and forth. I overanalyzed things big time--if I had kept to my writer's instinct, I would have seen that the strings were pointing to Mistah Lovah Lovah Snape as the good guy.

But I was a bit worried that he would turn out to be too good

Yeah, during the Pensieve memories I was hoping, just a little, that he took off George's ear just for the hell of it. heh. Yeah, I'm a little crazy, as you already know...but anyway, JKR apparently couldn't even give him that little bit of baddassery, because he was just trying to protect his secret lovah Lupin.

"Sure, he's a bastard--but he's our bastard" was my take on him. He was a nasty person on a mundane, ego-driven level, but on a deeper level he was doing the right thing.

haha! That's definitely what turned out to be true in the end. I always liked that he was a bastard, I liked that he wasn't easy to pigeonhole, and I was always intrigued by why he was so accepted into Dumbledore's trust. He was definitely a scene-stealer of a character, seriously. Which makes me wonder why she left him out of so much of DH. Or--wait--maybe I just answered my own question.

Could she manage to walk that line, to show him as fundamentally good and redeemable, without sugar-coating or explaining away his worst qualities?

Yes, she did, but she really held her cards to her chest, and I'm of the mind that it didn't help much--she could have been a little clearer, had a few more moments, and it might have actually strengthened the book. Then again, I'm a foaming-at-the-mouth Snape-girl, so what the hell do I know? I sure as hell haven't sold a billion books. I can't even finish one!

Post-DH, I've seen a few people complain that Snape either didn't get redeemed "enough", or didn't get redeemed at all--which just makes me shake my head and wonder what books they were reading.

Oh no, I was totally satisfied with the...level?...of redemption. I thought it was just perfect--no soppy speeches, no drawn-out death scene, no moronic moment of Snapeish sobs.

What I felt unsatisfied with was this mention of Harry-Snape as being "personal" and then having absolutely no confrontation between them at all, not even a burning, simmering rage in Harry's chest monster.

Snape's redemption began in that ugly, terrible moment of overwhelming guilt, shame and remorse. He wanted to die then, but instead agreed to live in order that Lily's death not be in vain. And while the single-minded love for Lily that motivated Snape may seem selfish and limited--especially when contrasted with the sort of great universal love that enabled Harry to go face Voldemort at the certain cost of his own life--it was everything he had to offer, and he offered it willingly (sort of like the widow's mite).

Yes, his love for her was the thorn pricking him to do what needed to be done, the slender thread that drew him, step by step, over agonizing terrain. Looking back, the story does resonate more, and his character is more impressive and understandable. But it does suck that I'll have to re-read it all to really get all of that. heh.

Okay, I was giving myself a haircut and took a break to address this question. And now it's 1:35 and the post office closes at 3:00 and I only have the hair on one side of my head cut. So I'd better quit discussing Snape and go finish giving myself a trim so I can mail packages out today...

Yes, you must not face the public lopsided! Though you could grab a nearby feline and drape it over your head as a chapeau.

And thank you for not unleashing the hounds of DH hell upon me! lol

Oh, and I dreamt of your NOLA pants this morning. I was wearing them in the dream, and when I woke up, I said, "Hey, those weren't my pants, those were Julian's!"

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-16 08:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] droxy.livejournal.com
Dh was an odd experience for me, and it was many firsts and lasts. My first/last book event was one in the same. I went into it knowing Snape was a goner but hoping I was wrong. For me the question was how. I liked the book too, but I did not understand the wank about it. I have always kept canon and fanon as very distinct entities.

I agree that I miss the theorizing and analysis.

I still remain a fan of the fandom, and all teh clever gals who found more loop holes in DH than I could find in swiss cheese. I firmly beleive the loopholes exist for a reason.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-16 09:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] valis2.livejournal.com
I liked the book too, but I did not understand the wank about it. I have always kept canon and fanon as very distinct entities.

I like a bit of fanon--okay, fine, I like a lot of fanon, as long as it's my kind of fanon, lol.

I agree that I miss the theorizing and analysis.

There's a gaping hole where we used to theorize...I can't believe I miss it so much!

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-16 09:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] droxy.livejournal.com
we can theorize about loopholes XD

Wow, as always

Date: 2008-05-19 05:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aurora-greyeyes.livejournal.com
you hit the nail on the head for me. I feel this way also. Are you attending Portus?
I hope to be finished with you B-day present. Haha I think that episode is the one that I'm in! But the most telling part got left out where I said that Dumbledore was way too Machivillian (sp) for me and he held his cards too close to his chest and it would not work the way he(Dumbledore) wanted. I never guess that he was gay, although it does make it more poinent that he and Grindwald "broke up" and does explaine his unwillingness to step in and put a stop to him.

As for DH, I was underwhelmed. She really needed an editor.The earlier books were tighter. I listen to them over and over and I get more and more subtleties from them each time.As for Severus I don't think she understand what we see in him look at the summery of the "Hairy Heart" from Beedles book. I think it is another retelling of the Snape character, she put more of what she wanted into it.
She didn't expect so many fans to identify as having made misstakes and wanting to make amends for them. Not to mention a large portion of people were picked on in school, I know I sure was. Not to mention I totally love geeks and in the wizarding world Severus was the geeky, nerd (and totally brillant).

Tootles

Re: Wow, as always

Date: 2008-05-19 03:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] valis2.livejournal.com
you hit the nail on the head for me. I feel this way also. Are you attending Portus?

Alas, no! I will be at Terminus!

Haha I think that episode is the one that I'm in! But the most telling part got left out where I said that Dumbledore was way too Machivillian (sp) for me and he held his cards too close to his chest and it would not work the way he(Dumbledore) wanted.

Wow, you were quite correct with that, too! I had always thought that Ddore was totally manipulative, but then after HBP I thought, huh, well I guess he wasn't as manipulative as I thought. I remember reading a few opinions that concurred--and then he turns out to be the most manipulative EVAH, lol!

As for DH, I was underwhelmed. She really needed an editor.The earlier books were tighter.

I think that she might have been rushed, the editor might have been rushed (and also very nervous about editing a book that was so many years in the making)...I think it's obvious that parts of the book seemed rushed.

She didn't expect so many fans to identify as having made misstakes and wanting to make amends for them. Not to mention a large portion of people were picked on in school, I know I sure was. Not to mention I totally love geeks and in the wizarding world Severus was the geeky, nerd (and totally brillant).

TOTALLY. I think she was a bit unnerved about how many people latched onto Snape--I think she was a bit repulsed by it, too, possibly. I was never really that interested in Harry--he annoyed me. But Snape--I could understand, identify with, feel for.

Re: Wow, as always

Date: 2008-05-20 05:02 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
I never finished that last post but did you notice people only atttained "salvation"(forgivness) whatever you want to call it, by death?

Like Pettigrew? But that whole sceen was so weird for me.I really thought the wizard life debt was something really big WTF?
And Snape he was redeemed, and he's dead...
Look at Umbridge I felt she was one of the worst characters of all, and she walked away scott free!

So maybe I will just continue on with my wicked ways and just live longer ;)(hey the bad guys have all the coolest clothes anyway)

I'm not going to Terminus,sob (unless I win the lotto)
Maybe I'll just start sending photos of your pressent doing fun stuff....haha

TTFN

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-19 09:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] chaeche.livejournal.com
I am so sorry I was right about Snape. :(

The way you worded it--JKR straddling the line--is really brilliant. I read His Dark Materials right after finishing DH and thought "wow now that meant what it was intended to mean." With Rowling, we the fen, help out a bit.

Keep Snape-ing!

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-19 09:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] valis2.livejournal.com
I am so sorry I was right about Snape. :(

Your new nickname should be Sybill, lol.

I'm really impressed with [livejournal.com profile] snapecast's run. A brilliant show, with lots of wonderful commentary, interviews, discussions, and fun bits. The quality is very high throughout!

I would tell you to keep Snape-ing as well, but I know I don't have to. *grins*

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-20 05:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] chaeche.livejournal.com
Thanks for the kind words. We will still do occassional shows here and there, but the monthly thing is a bit old now that the series is over.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-05-22 12:30 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] verdenia.livejournal.com
Great post, I muchly enjoyed reading!

DH had flaws, for sure, but I did still have a good amount of squee and laughter and shock, so I was fairly satisfied with it.

I don't remember Barty Crouch Jr's funeral in PoA at all, so I guess I'll have to maybe take a look at that? Interesting. But then I only read the whole book once, and the end of the book a second time, immediately after finishing--so that I could check out the time-doubled sequence.

I read the books in the late summer or fall of 2002, and was fully immersed in fanfic by 2003.
Post-OotP had Oodles of great fanfic, as you say. I wasn't reading as much meta then as I was post-HBP, but ah, Golden and Silver Eras indeed.

I'm still loving fic, though. I havne't been able to read nearly as much of the S_G this year as last, and I lament that, but I've really enjoyed what I have been able to read. :P

(no subject)

Date: 2008-06-13 02:28 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] valis2.livejournal.com
don't remember Barty Crouch Jr's funeral in PoA at all, so I guess I'll have to maybe take a look at that?

Sirius mentions it--we don't actually see it, and I should have been a little more clear with that statement, sorry!

Post-OotP had Oodles of great fanfic, as you say. I wasn't reading as much meta then as I was post-HBP, but ah, Golden and Silver Eras indeed.

Yeah, I keep thinking, "Those were the days," and then laughing at myself. We're still seeing a lot of wonderful fic, after all. I just feel like it needs a lot more setup now. :(

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