Island of the Lone Sane Thought

Sometimes he's a Muggle booze snob too.

We don't know, but I tend to figure along the lines of pureblood crumbling manor type. And any Muggle stuff he did know about, yeah, he wouldn't proclaim for the Malfoys, etc.

The matchbox thing is curious though. I always wonder if it's an oversight, or if there's anything to it.

From:

The matchbox thing is curious though. I always wonder if it's an oversight, or if there's anything to it.

Me too. It bothers me. I do think it was just a slip up, but then again, who knows what Rowling is going to pull out of her head...

From:

gmth.livejournal.com

I actually had him listening to Billy Joel in one of my earliest fics.

*headdesks*

From:

zoepaleologa.livejournal.com

To paraphrase Shaw, "It is impossible for a writer to write Severus Snape without making another writer despise them."

I wrote the Dante reading Snape, who never actually quoted him, and made his discovery of Dante an integral plot point, so I feel a bit persecuted here.

My excuse is that it was my first fanfic, before I knew all the cliche potential. My present incarnation has very little in the way of Muggle interests.

I'd still argue that my Dante reading Snape sounds a lot more likely than anyone else's tango dancer, wine connoisseur or baroque harpshichord player. Simply because I can see him reading as a leisure interest more than any other. The dancing nonsense I tend to just be wryly amused by, because it is clearly the product of a Rickman fanasist. He always has a frockcoat in such fics... I rest my case.

From:

I've been thinking about this a bit, ever since I wrote Snape going to see wizarding opera (a sheer self-indulgence, admittedly) and

straussmonster posited that it's quite impossible for there to be such a thing as wizarding opera. She's almost got me convinced, though I do have several loopholes I can apply. ;)

The thing is, there is canon evidence of wizarding folk being rather enthusiastic about Muggle hobbies and Muggle culture. We know Dumbledore enjoys bowling and chamber music (both Muggle versions, presumably) and Nicholas Flamel was an opera enthusiast (also, presumably of Muggle opera). I don't know how pure-blooded they are, but one could assume that Dumbledore is, at least, a pure-blood -- none of his many detractors, not even Malfoy or Umbridge or such people -- have ever taken up his blood heritage as a weapon against him.

The key is that certain aspects of culture need a critical mass of viewership and a certain type of establishment -- governmental or cultural -- to be able to flourish. The wizarding population is reasonably small, so small and hell-bent on individualism that establishments such as opera and/or orchestral music as separate from their Muggle counterparts seems unlikely. Similarly, poetry and theatre are niche genres; considering how few poets manage to make a name for themselves in our Muggle world, I don't see how there could be more than a handful of wizard poets, with an audience of ten avid readers each.

To make a tangent, consider how small the Hogwarts library is, compared to larger Muggle libraries. One would assume that since Hogwarts is the highest institute of learning in Britain, it would have as comprehensive a library as any such establishment can; yet, it never strikes me larger than the library of a medium-sized town. So if these are the quantities of books the wizarding world produces for the use of academia -- and some of these books are old; magical theory doesn't get re-prints every century ;) -- one can draw parallels to how few volumes of prose and/or fiction get published.

One would be tempted to make an analogy to gay literature. As a clearly delineated minority, gay and lesbian books often have their own shelf or section in any large bookstore, but the contents are small potatoes compared to the other sections. There is poetry, but not a whole lot of it; there is fiction and science and everything with a gay bent, but the numbers are small and the quality is, shall we say, variable. Granted, wizards are more insular and do not function as part of the Muggle society like the queer nation does, but the theory of minority literature still merits consideration: it is quite natural to supplement it with literature from the majority genres. I for one know that I couldn't exist on queer literature alone. So it is quite possible that even if wizards would want to keep to their own circles, to have any sort of cultural hobbies, they need to venture outside their little insular world.

Having said all that, yeah, I do agree that the Byron (why is it always Byron, BTW? Why not some Baudelaire? Much more Snape-ish) and the Bach are shorthands, or ways with which to elevate Snape from his clearly un-aristocratic roots. Sometimes, if used well, they do fit the character; often, they're glued-on characteristics written by writers who wouldn't know chamber music if it smacked them upside the head. However, I don't necessarily agree that such things are "pretentious" by nature, but then again, I'm an opera fanatic and opera fanaticism is often construed to be the height of pretension. ;)

(I hope that made some sense. Too little sleep, agh!)

From:

!!!

Everyone knows it is Blue Oyster Cult!!!!

~~and Skid Row~~

Oh man butt rock Snape, I can't stop laughing! Eighteen and Life to Go!

You know what Billy Joel reminds me of? Did you ever see the sitcom Bosom Buddies w/Tom Hanks in drag??? Hahahahaha! What if Snape had to live in an apartment for women? And Ron is his roommate, because they're the only people to wear drag in canon.

From:

The dancing nonsense I tend to just be wryly amused by, because it is clearly the product of a Rickman fanasist.

When I come across the first Snape fic where they stop to tango at a Shell station, I shall give new meaning to the term "cruel and unusual punishment". *nods*

From:

From:

gillieweed.livejournal.com

You know some idiot is now going to write a fic about this.

From:

gillieweed.livejournal.com

Why couldn't there be a wizarding opera? They have their own musical "artistes" on the wizarding wireless, their own rock bands...just because it seems Hogwarts is culture-deprived doesn't mean there isn't a subculture of artistic wizards starving in garretts composing magical poetry and operas.
I don't know if Snape would go to one, but I see no reason for them not to exist.

From:

I can only hope! Can Draco be Donna Dixon's character?

From:

I'm now completely ripping off what

straussmonster explained (and probably mangling her far greater factual knowledge while I'm at it), but to paraphrase what I've discussed with her:

Opera is an art form that arises in exactly two sorts of circumstances: court and urban society. All of Britain has one wizarding village, so it's not like the wizarding world has any sort of urban culture to speak of; the British wizarding world functions under one massively bureaucratic system and there has been no mention of any sort of wizarding royalty. No all-powerful mayors, no kings, no organised courts.

The thing is, I could believe wizarding theatre. It can be accomplished by small, travelling troupes with little or no financial backing save for what they get from selling tickets. Opera, however, is an extremely non-individualistic art form (and according to JKR, wizards are about as individualistic a folk as one can get) that takes an awful lot of organisation, resources, and labour force to kick off the ground. Opera as we understand it today is aesthetically rich, extremely formalised, resistant to change, and historically and even today a very stage-oriented form of art (i.e. not a travelling genre).

So, in summary, while the wizarding world would have the necessary singers, etc. it's the inception of the art form that is unlikely in the first place. (I have counter-arguments against this, e.g. what if wizarding opera is an off-shoot of Muggle opera, but they are rather specious at best.) If it never gets kicked off the ground, it's not happening, even if the necessary building blocks could be scrounged together. A pile of bricks does not a house make, IOW.

From:

rickfan37.livejournal.com

Bwahahaha! Evil!

From:

I wrote the Dante reading Snape, who never actually quoted him, and made his discovery of Dante an integral plot point, so I feel a bit persecuted here.

Oh, we all give into the urge in the beginning. TLS has a few cliches in it, oh yeah. Part of why I wish I'd waited a little while before I started actually writing it.

I think it's just part of the writing life...hell, just rewind a few entries on this page and you can see bizarre angst and Cat Sues, so there you go. :) Hope you don't feel too persecuted...you're a great writer, and your Dante-reading Snape was probably better than 95% of ffnet Snapes.

Oh, and I agree that Dante-reading Snape is a lot easier to envision than harpsichord player and wine-snob. Absolutely.

Though I'd love to see tango!Snape, privately. Very privately.

From:

zoepaleologa.livejournal.com

My own personal Snape is the guy in "But You Alone". He's more unreconstructed than my earlier version. And let me assure you, if I met him, we'd have a helluva lot better things to do than dance the tango, though we might indulge in the horizontal bop...

From:

zoepaleologa.livejournal.com

I'll cheerfully hold them down while you kick them. Then we could swap over. I'd even get my pointiest stillettos out of I'm-too-bloody-old-and-boring-to-wear-shoes-that-are-not-comfy storage for the occasion.

From:

Hmm...I realize that I didn't put pretentious in quotes...oops. *runs off and fixes* Sorry about that. I only meant that they are viewed as pretentious by a large portion of society.

I have always wondered about the presence of literature in wizarding society, especially considering that there are no artistic classes mentioned in the course schedules at Hogwarts. Obviously the students are expected to be literate, but not much else happens in that arena, unless you consider the valentines Lockhart coordinated. Hence my determination not to allude to any literature in my fic.

I used to read Mummy fic a lot, and at first I thought it was interesting if the characters to spouted classic literature, until I really thought about it. What sort of books would a desert-dwelling native own? And that's what set the stage for my Byron-spouting-Snape snobbery.

Though he definitely is a bit of a poet, in my mind, considering his opening day speech in Potions, and his little potion riddle in PS/SS.

That was a really great comment, and I was fascinated, btw.

From:

rickfan37.livejournal.com

I certainly didn't mean to cast aspersions on your stories (and do say none of my flist is included in my rant)...in Therapy you used Inferno as an integral part of the story (I think it was Therapy? Anyway, it was really convincing) and you know I'm loving BYA!
Trouble is, from every BYA and Tea with the Black Dragon (where the tango is done well), there are spawned a gazillion poor copies that belong on the less complimentary LJ communities. Stories where he throws out the odd quote in the middle of a conversation (usually half naked) and the heroine simpers at his enormous, umm, intellect. ;-)

From:

My brain is turning into Aquanet goo.

From:

Hee! Thanks for sounding in on this entry, btw. Your opinion is always appreciated.

From:

rickfan37.livejournal.com

often, they're glued-on characteristics written by writers who wouldn't know chamber music if it smacked them upside the head.
Exactly, and that's the problem. While I personally don't see him in that way, it certainly doesn't gall me when I read it in other's work if it's well done, and they obviously know what they're talking about. Sadly, that's rarely the case.

From:

gillieweed.livejournal.com

Nah, wizarding culture isn't that far removed from the muggle world. It's entirely possible that there's some tragic operas about ill-fated affairs between a muggle and a wizard or some operatic retelling of events leading to the WW going underground. Opera's courtly origins are irrelevant really, there's no reason why the art form coudn't be adapted. Lot's of small cities have opera companies--granted not very good ones--but I don't see why London, while not a completely wizarding city couldn't manage to cobble together a troupe or for that matter even Hogsmeade come up with a small regional company that 'magics up' muggle opera for some high-brow entertainment.

From:

I only meant that they are viewed as pretentious by a large portion of society.

Oh, quite so, and I very well understand such a view; when observed objectively, opera is an extremely ridiculous genre with formalisms and structures that are either incomprehensible or utterly laughable unless one takes them in the proper context of the art form. Very much an acquired taste, in other words. And certainly, a lot of people invoke opera or classical music when they wish to appear more educated/sophisticated than they feel they are, hence the unfortunate reputation. Why this is so, I have no clue. I'm just there for the music. :)

Obviously the students are expected to be literate, but not much else happens in that arena, unless you consider the valentines Lockhart coordinated.

A very good point, and I could even construe the lack of arts classes at Hogwarts to speak on behalf of wizards being forced to seek their cultural fix in the Muggle arts. The wizarding folk are taught to be consumers of literature and music and such things, but outside Lockhart's valentines and singing the school song at the start-of-term feast, there is not much encouragement to become a producer of art. Not that education in such matters is imperative to make artists -- one can be self-taught, after all -- but it certainly seems to discourage seeking careers in the arts.

From:

it certainly seems to discourage seeking careers in the arts.

Yes, all of the occupations we've seen so far seem to be rather prosaic...Ministry official, teacher, Dark Lord...

I know we're not getting the entire schedule, but I haven't seen a glimpse of arts, just about. And there doesn't seem to be an outlet for crafts, or handcrafted spells/goods...they're either amusingly charmed items that embarrass or hurt people (Dark Magic items at Grimmauld) or they're practical (brooms, Molly's clock, etc.). Or they're mass produced by companies, though perhaps "mass" isn't quite the best word. Actually, the entire wizarding economy fascinates me, because it's so small. Anyway, short of shops, we don't hear of any private money changing hands, probably because of Harry's pov, though.

I'm rambling, sorry.

From: