Thinking about other fandoms

[valis2]

I've only been in the HP fandom (and the Mummy fandom, but I had no LJ then and didn't really participate much). But someone said something in an essay recently that made me wonder.

Obviously we tear canon apart. We dissect it, we shred it, we look for clues for shipping, backstory, and book seven's plot. However, at some point it has to break down. JKR writes interesting characters and twisty plots, but under heavy scrutiny it becomes obvious that some things aren't meant to be...well...scrutinized. I've noticed that fen in other fandoms mention the same phenomenon.

So, to all of you who were/are in other fandoms...do you do the same kind of intense dissection? And how successful is it? Do some works actually stand up well to that kind of close reading/viewing?

Comments

[kaiz.livejournal.com]

Nearly every single fandom I've ever been (and the number is getting very large now) has been scrutinized to death! Media fandoms (esp. TV) are among the most problematic, I think, because there are so many external constraints that are placed on the production of the 'source text'. The producers only have so much money, so many minutes per episode, to tell the story...add to the fact that networks place constraints on the final product, actors have contracts that influence the content, etc. so by necessity, some things *have* to get left out or altered to fit TV or film format. Usually those seem to be the things that fans are most obessive about! (i.e. continuity, scene closure) In my experience, very few shows stand up to extremely close scrutiny for those external reasons.

With books, individual authors have a bit more control over the final product. Of course, that can lead to problems of its own, when a canon is written so tightly that it's nearly impossible to ask (and answer) certain popular types of fanfiction what-ifs. A tightly written canon isn't always the best, IMO, for sparking fanfiction.

[furiosity.livejournal.com]

Oh God, yes. We had such a long wait between the first film and the sequel in the Matrix fandom that I remember, in 2001 I was theorising about the Red/Blue dichotomy being a metaphor for the Doppler effect. *titters at self*

We'd actually peaked around 2002 and couldn't wait for the sequels already, because there were so many theories with no confirmation one way or another. Hell, the first Matrix film got entire books written about the philosophy of it in the span of 3 years *owns all of these and has read them multiple times*. It's the nature of fandom, though, to dissect things; whether or not these things are meant to be dissected is usually irrelevant.

[gillieweed.livejournal.com]

Nothing could stand up to the nutty scrutiny fans put their canon through. Nothing was ever meant to stand up to that. Literacry criticism has been going on since there's been literature and look what non-fiction writers have to put up with.
Of course none of this comes close to the nitpicking fans have put the HP books through.
There are things I really dislike about JKRs books and things I love, but I wouldn't wish the sort of scrutiny her books have been put through on anyone.

[gillieweed.livejournal.com]

literary. duh.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

Nearly every single fandom I've ever been (and the number is getting very large now) has been scrutinized to death!

We are rather demanding as fans, aren't we? *laughs*

I've never been in a TV-based fandom, so what you're saying here is fascinating.

I've always wondered about how stories are written. I mean, during the season there is a new show every week! I've seen that some stories are like "bridges" that cover the gap between shows...very, very interesting.

A tightly written canon isn't always the best, IMO, for sparking fanfiction.

I think you're absolutely right.

I keep thinking that HBP has certainly taken some of the wind out of the HP fandom's sails. It was so open-ended before HBP came out; we could write so many pairings and do so many interesting plot explorations, mostly because there weren't almost any concrete relationships. I'm reading three Snupin fics that occasionally move in parallel lines, mostly because the ending of HBP was so straightforward.

[chrysantza.livejournal.com]

In the other fandom I'm in, the Earth's Children fandom, people dissect the books like crazy. We also have the bonus of a lot of science nerds (me included) scrutinizing the anthropology and archeology behind the series. We practically had people killing each other over the question of whether Neanderthals and modern humans ever cross-bred.

I think this obsessive dissection is quite common to most fandoms. It's fun, but it can go a little overboard at times. Sometimes a minor character is just a minor character...

[valis2.livejournal.com]

We had such a long wait between the first film and the sequel in the Matrix fandom that I remember, in 2001 I was theorising about the Red/Blue dichotomy being a metaphor for the Doppler effect. *titters at self*

Before I ever got onto the internet, I spent a lot of free time thinking about the Matrix movies. Even after part two appeared, I was still tremendously absorbed in theories about the Matrix and the movies, and it was a great little hobby, especially on long trips. A mental puzzle of sorts. Thank goodness I didn't have a computer because I never would have surfaced.

It's the nature of fandom, though, to dissect things

Hell, yeah.

Was the Matrix fandom delighted or distressed by the third movie, overall? What do you think?

[valis2.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, I cry all the time when I'm criticized...oh, wait. heh.

I really do think that her books have some parts which do stand up to major scrutiny...but overall, she's written a deeper-than-your-average-mystery-book, not a new branch of philosophy.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

I think this obsessive dissection is quite common to most fandoms. It's fun, but it can go a little overboard at times. Sometimes a minor character is just a minor character...

Hee! So I see fen are the same everywhere. ;)

Earth's children...I think that's Orson Scott Card, but can't remember right off the top of my head.

Fascinating that so many educated people are having such discussions! That's one great thing fandom does, I think. (Well, besides causing people to CAPSLOCK at each other.)

[furiosity.livejournal.com]

We would have loved to have you in the Matrix fandom! It was a lot of fun until it became, you know, not.

Hmm..both sequels were much-maligned and much-revered... after the second movie most of us were saying "hey, it's half a movie, let's see what the third one is like". After the third one, people were either disbelieving/even more polarised in favour of the way the brothers W did things or trying desperately to justify 4 years of waiting for something that was overall a disappointment (I was amongst these latter folks. I failed to justify it). I don't know much about the fanfic-centric side of the Matrix fandom; the community I was a part of placed an extremely heavy emphasis on meta. I would say it was a pretty even split. A lot of the hardcore fans of old are gone now, myself included. So I'd say distressed, but I'm biased.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

I can imagine that the third movie was an intense polarizing experience. For me, it was a disappointment. I so enjoyed the first two that I was very much hoping for something amazing in the third movie.

I think what I liked best was how cohesive the first two movies were. I enjoyed them immensely because I thought they really fit together well. There are always going to be preposterous elements in movies, but I thought that the Matrix movies were really unusually intelligent and I was even happier after the second one.

Then I saw the third, and as I was watching the as if monster reared its ugly head. As in, I would watch a seen and say to my friend, "What? As if!" Irritating, but the more as ifs there are, the lower my score goes. And at the end of the movie, I just lost it when the teeny machines all combine to become the Voice of the machine. Why? Because the Voice was clearly irritated and I just could not understand that. Irritation is a human thing, and the Voice sounded silly both in its actual vocalization and in the content of its speech. After that I said, "That's enough!"

I have the first two on DVD, but I like to live in a little realm by myself and pretend that the third movie was never made.

Whew, way longer than it should have been. Sorry. ;)

[kaiz.livejournal.com]

We are rather demanding as fans, aren't we? *laughs*

No kidding!

I've never been in a TV-based fandom, so what you're saying here is fascinating.

It's interesting when the actors, writers, and directors are open about how the production proceeded and what did/didn't get left on the cutting room floor...and how that all affected fan readings!

For instance, in Highlander fandom, writers were quite open about what was in the original script, actors about what their motivations were, what they'd been told to do, etc., directors about what they were going for during various scenes and so forth. And since there was a US version and a European version (the infamous Eurominutes), some scenes were cut that added or subtracted subtext/canon information. It was pretty fascinating to see how, with the addition of scenes or bits of scenes that had been cut from the original (either to make the show shorter, to censor things--the French TV channels allowed nudity but not overt bloodshed, for instance, whereas the US channels were reversed!) completely changed the meaning of certain scenes and entire episodes.

I keep thinking that HBP has certainly taken some of the wind out of the HP fandom's sails. It was so open-ended before HBP came out; we could write so many pairings and do so many interesting plot explorations, mostly because there weren't almost any concrete relationships.

This might be the biggest weirdness for me, in HP, coming from so many media fandoms. I'm so used to fiction getting Jossed, and to writing around canonical relationships (spouses, ex-wives/husbands, the infamous Babe of the Week) and canonical events (heck, Highlander, Sentinel, and Due South fans have ignored entire *seasons* of canon because their favorite characters were killed off! LOL) that it seems odd how stifled many writers feel in HP now that we've got more canon.

For instance, I was really surprised when the Harry/Hermione folks got so upset about Harry/Ginny becoming canon. After all, they're, what, 16 years old? With one single line, "And then, Harry and Ginny broke up" you totally clear the field for Harry/Whomever, yes? :-)

I mean, during the season there is a new show every week!

Thinking about it, perhaps that's part of the stunned silence that seems to follow each new chunk of HP canon. Whereas with a TV show, you get one small bit of canon each week, with HP, you get the equivalent of one entire season dropped on you at once! :-)

[valis2.livejournal.com]

It's interesting when the actors, writers, and directors are open about how the production proceeded and what did/didn't get left on the cutting room floor...and how that all affected fan readings!

Yes, this is tremendously interesting---I find it totally intriguing because as you know HP is so very source based. There are movies, but most people just work from the book canon, or at least that's what it looks like to me.

Movie/TV sourced fandoms are much more collaborative, I'd imagine, especially when you bring in diverse elements like actors, writers, surprise, fear, ruthless efficiencies...I'll come in again.

For instance, in Highlander fandom, writers were quite open about what was in the original script

Someone on the flist somewhere was talking about how eye opening the commentaries on the Highlander DVDs are, and how the writers openly discuss things that were cut. In fact, apparently they have a bit of fun with the extras as well.

it seems odd how stifled many writers feel in HP now that we've got more canon.

That's true. But canon in HP is so much more concrete...it seems harder to "disregard" or write it off. In fact, I've read more than one complaint about Tonks getting killed off to leave the playing field clear for Severus to move in on the Lupin lovin'. ;) I think many of us want our canon and our cake, too.

[kaiz.livejournal.com]

I think many of us want our canon and our cake, too.

I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that HP is based in text and these other fandoms are based in...er, images. Does text feel more factual/settled than images do? Do we somehow have a deeper reverence for text than images?

I know that some people have a great deal of difficulty writing fanfiction for book-based fandoms, and yet have no problem with visual media fandoms. Often, they cite that TV shows and films tend to be more collaborative and so you're only "messing with a committee's vision" rather than with a book author where somehow, the canon is more intimate. But I wonder if it has something to do with an unconscious/conscious reverence for the printed word...what do you think?

[valis2.livejournal.com]

Does text feel more factual/settled than images do? Do we somehow have a deeper reverence for text than images?
I wonder if it has something to do with an unconscious/conscious reverence for the printed word...

Hmm...I think it could be partially based on the fact that HP canon comes out every year or two in bulk. We obsess so much over it, and we write so many theories and essays and just general squees that by the time it gets here, we're totally ready to assimilate it. And we really do, in a very ironclad way for most. I mean, Sirius-death-deniers usually label their fics prominently.

I also think that the HP books in particular have their own peculiar feature...they're very easy to read, yet there is a depth there as well for those seeking it. Not a Moby Dick depth, no, but enough to satisfy many adult fans. So I think that because JKR writes so clearly, and delineates her main characters so well, it makes looser depictions of canon seem...well...uncanonlike. Plus, the HP universe is encapsulated rather neatly in six books, and you can get most of them in paperback for $6 USD each. Unlike Buffy, where you have to rent them or buy them, and it could get very costly to do the entire run. Plus, there's a LOT more to absorb there.

I think because TV series are disseminated so quickly that there isn't a lot of "down time" (well, until the series is cancelled/finished) to digest canon and write. With HP, we have lots of time between books. So I think that a lot of readers/writers want to read something canon-compliant, because of this tendency to absorb the text so fully. The source is rather simplistic yet delightfully open. It's such an odd fandom, because we have rather strong character personalities, and very little in the way of backstory for most of them due to the myopic nature of our narrator. We also have a pretty strong ongoing plot.

I think because the books have so many unexplained mysteries that we see a lot of "explaining" fics around. (For example, the recent explosion in Severus Snape, Supah Dupah Deep Cover Spy fics. Everyone wants to figure out if he is evil or good.) I think that we have a lot of people in fandom who get really upset when new canon is released and doesn't follow their preferences.

I think a lot of things work into our desire for canon cake. ;) I think what you're suggesting about the sanctity of the written word is fascinating and plays into it as well.

[kaiz.livejournal.com]

We obsess so much over it, and we write so many theories and essays and just general squees that by the time it gets here, we're totally ready to assimilate it. And we really do, in a very ironclad way for most. I mean, Sirius-death-deniers usually label their fics prominently.

See, in this way, I don't see any difference at all between HP and media fandoms. The theories fly fast and furiously during the days between new episodes. As soon a new ep comes out, it's pounced upon and dissected. Gah, just look at any SG-A list or LJ comm the day after a new ep. It's like a feeding frenzy, theories flying like mad! LOL. And re. A/U stuff, people do label their fics accordingly...like when Richie was killed on Highlander...people would slap a big "Clan Denial" warning at the top of their stories. ::snerk::

Plus, the HP universe is encapsulated rather neatly in six books, and you can get most of them in paperback for $6 USD each. Unlike Buffy, where you have to rent them or buy them, and it could get very costly to do the entire run. Plus, there's a LOT more to absorb there.

Bittorrent is really changing all that, though. These days, you can download the latest episodes of *anything* moments after it's been aired.

I think because TV series are disseminated so quickly that there isn't a lot of "down time" (well, until the series is cancelled/finished) to digest canon and write.

Hmm, I don't think I agree. I mean, new episodes always breed new fic, almost immediately. Especially fic of the missing scene variety. Almost no one waits until the whole season is over to start writing fic, even long stuff. The digestion--and the fic production--happens really rapidly! And even for long stories, unless something really *huge* happens (i.e. a character is killed/character gets married/etc.) chances are a medium length story won't get Jossed before the writer can finish it. But then, the fear of episodic Jossing isn't such a huge deal, at least not in the fandoms I've been in.

So I think that a lot of readers/writers want to read something canon-compliant, because of this tendency to absorb the text so fully.

Do you think that this might be a chicken-and-egg sort of thing? I mean, it's easier--as a writer--to be canon-compliant if you're assured that new canon won't Joss your 200,000 word epic for a year or so. Heh. ;-) Which leads to more canon-compliant stories (at least for a while!), which readers devour, and...the cycle continues. There's also the fact that there is just so damned *much* fanfiction in HP (unlike, say, Brimstone fandom) so that there's always something new and canonically up-to-date to read. I don't know...given how many popular (long) stories deviate so much from HP canon (ff.net, for instance), I'm not sure that HP readers are more desireous of canon-compliant fic than readers in other fandoms!

The Darkover example

[jaelle-n-gilla.livejournal.com]

I've played in Marion Zimmer-Bradley's Darkover world for a while (who would have guessed? ;-), and, yes, it is all the same. People dissect the stories and the stories don't hold together well when dissected.
The map of Darkover is a patchwork at best. If you dig into it, it looks like tectonic movement has the speed of a sailboat on Darkover. The astronimical situation of that unlikely planet is not a scientific one either. The time lines vary, there are small inconsistencies in characters and people can get into heated discussions about how a never-written bit of story might have looked in the background and how that effected the whole thing.

While I enjoyed some discussions, I find it disturbing how some people insist on certain facts which they derive by logic from a series that is built completely on a writer's imagination.

MZB herself stated more than once that her focus is on plots, not on maps or physics or biology or any other logical background. She simply didn't care. Personally I can live with that and immerse into the story, over-reading deliberately one or the other inconsistency. I find it sad that some people can't.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

*laughs*

Just goes to show I know nothing about writing for TV fandoms. ;)

I do think that there's a bit more time invested in writing for Buffy than writing for HP, just because there's so much more canon, and it's not written down. (You can get through HP's canon in about sixty hours of reading; I would imagine that watching all seven seasons of Buffy would be more like two hundred hours.) Then again, there are probably in depth episode guides to help Buffy writers, now that I think about it.

Any way you look at it, it's fun. :)

Re: The Darkover example

[valis2.livejournal.com]

MZB herself stated more than once that her focus is on plots, not on maps or physics or biology or any other logical background.

Yes, and I think that's true for JKR in many ways as well. Some things just don't work. Even her magical system is a bit inconsistent in ways. The thing is, tearing it all apart makes us understand some things better, but it also points out flaws, which some people try to fix (exactly what you're describing about people who "insist on certain facts").

I always meant to read Darkover books, just never got around to it. Still, they're on my list.

[mehitobel-ny.livejournal.com]

Nothing could stand up to the nutty scrutiny fans put their canon through. Nothing was ever meant to stand up to that.

Especially if you're talking about a work of popular entertainment. Saul Bellow or Joyce Carol Oates might have in the back of their minds "I'd better cross my t's and dot my i's, 'cause otherwise, you know somebody's gonna notice" (well, not Saul, so much, on account of he's dead now, but you know...) But when JKR started writing, she had an idea for a story - a children's story - and I suppose (I'm extrapolating here) her goal was to get her plot on paper, with the themes that interested her, in a style that would be engaging, suspenseful and well-written. Things grew, as they do, and she had to tie them together. Some got tied together better than others, some fell into place brilliantly, and as she's indicated, some just had to be rewritten. I suspect that some of that stuff was sort of jimmy-rigged with chewing gum and paper clips.
And maybe that's for the best, to some extent. If a story is too finely 'crafted' as opposed to having bumps and flaws generated by spontaneity and flashes of inspiration, it probably would be rather dull.

Valis's question made me think of the world's most famous fandom - Star Trek. These people are (possibly) even more deranged than the HP fandom. And particularly for the original show, you look at the meager 'canon' (if you can call Tribbles canon with a straight face) and the anal analysis it's been subjected to. (Trekkies is hilarious, btw, if you haven't seen it.)

I'm not in anyway suggesting that anyone here is the sort of person addressed in the SNL "Get a Life!" skit (http://snltranscripts.jt.org/86/86hgetalife.phtml) (though I think there just might be a few HP fans in that category.

Charlie: Yeah, Episode 25, that's where you and the crew of the Enterprise get attacked by these spores? And started acting real weird, like hippies and stuff?
***
Charlie: Well um, I was wondering if you could settle a bet for me and my friends, okay? Um, like, when you... um, left your quarters for the last time? And you opened up your safe? Um... what was the combination?

William Shatner: [ lengthy pause, incredulous expression ] I-I-I don't know! I mean, it's been a long time! I, uh... I don't know that! Uh, okay?

Charlie: Okay! Okay!

*ahem* Except now, for HP and other fandom magnets. it's multiplied a thousandfold. At gigahertz speed.

[b2wm.livejournal.com]

Besides Potterverse and LotR, I flirt with the Star Wars and Animorphs fandoms from time to time. You want something that gets shaken down by even the humblest of overthinking the fandom, I point you in the direction of irregular webcomic vs. Coruscant. Despite the occasional physics problems, though, (and the right-out "Georgie Boy/K.A., you're contradicting yourself again" moments,) both series have their good points. Just don't mention the Holiday Special or the Animorphs TV series.

Even Tolkien gets overanalysed from time to time. The trilogy stands up well enough, but there are instances where "The Hobbit" contradicts the Appendicies, which contradicts "The Lost Tales," which contradicts the Silm, etc. Plus, leaving Fili, Kili, and Thranduil out of this, the more one reads about Luthien, Arwen, and Galadriel, the more Sueish tendencies some find. Fortunately, that which gets debated all the time can generally be smoothed out with the insistence that the Silm was unfinished and the Unfinished Tales are the author's AUs. Plus, it inspires the good kind of crackfic.

I don't overanalyse Discworld meta too much myself, but I've seen plenty of signs that it, too, doesn't always hold up. Pratchett, like Tolkien nuts, generally will take the inconsistencies and run with them.

[kaiz.livejournal.com]

I do think that there's a bit more time invested in writing for Buffy than writing for HP, just because there's so much more canon, and it's not written down.

You know, it just occurred to me that we're sort of talking about different things! (Maybe!)

I'm mostly talking about TV shows where canon that is still being created. So, stuff like Stargate: Atlantis or Numb3rs or West Wing or House, for instance. Whereas shows with dead canon, like Highlander, or Buffy, or Xfiles, etc., yeah, I do agree with you...When you have, say 10 years worth of episodes to get through, that is definitely *waaaay* more canon than HP has or ever will have!

But then, writing for a show that has an active canon is a very different feel than one whose canon is dead. For one thing, the type of theorizing that goes on tends to be different (because you're speculating on what *might* happen, rather than just interpreting what *has* already happened). Plus, with a dead canon, you usually have tons of fans who were in the show from the beginning who have already kind of, er, crystalized fanon (for lack of better word) and who are often very resistent to newcomers dropping in and coming up with different interpretations for canon.

In a way, HP is kind of like a show like the Sopranos. Where there are long periods where the canon is quasi-dead (no new stuff being added), and then a new chunk comes by and people can start firing up their theorizing/writing engines again!

Anyway, you're right, no matter how you slice it, it's a good time. :-)

Re: The Darkover example

[jaelle-n-gilla.livejournal.com]

I've seen heated discussions where people insisted they know *exactly* how this kind of matrix magic functions, and it was a *fact* the Darkover red sun is a read dwarf or giant, or whatever. They got quite upset when someone else pointed out there is still a flaw in the logic and it might just be the other way around. Makes me laugh, because probably MZB didn'T even think about the type of suns that could physically exist or the kind of atmosphere it would need to create a lavender sundown. It just sounded nice to her - and that's all the physics there is to it.

If I may give you a recomendation: The Forbidden Tower is a good starter. I like the Renunciates trilogy, too, but that is me, then :-) After a while, they get boring, thougzh. There are only a handfull of plots and they repeat eternally during the series.

Andnow I'll run and hide from the mob of Darko fans I hear coming down the street *G*

[cats-are-snakes.livejournal.com]

My first fandom was The Secret Adventures of Jules Verne. Obscure, yea. The actors and even the creator were so accessible because the show was small. Lots of pros were/are in the fandom, making for some amazing fanfic.

Since only one season was ever filmed (show got mired in legal battle), gaps left open deliberately were never filled. The creator, Gavin Scott, had plans for those gaps for later seasons. He's mentioned them.

Nothing can stand up to the nit-picking fans use. If there are gaps, we bitch. If gaps get filled in a manner we don't like, we bitch. Someone is not going to like the gap-filler no matter what it is. Automatic bitching.

[gillieweed.livejournal.com]

Don't you wish Severus Snape could show up at the next HP "Convention" and tell everyone to, "GET A LIFE! They're storybooks! Enjoy them!"
And he wouldn't have to make up a lame excuse like, "that was a re-enactment of the evil Snape episode!"