Thinking about other fandoms

[valis2]

I've only been in the HP fandom (and the Mummy fandom, but I had no LJ then and didn't really participate much). But someone said something in an essay recently that made me wonder.

Obviously we tear canon apart. We dissect it, we shred it, we look for clues for shipping, backstory, and book seven's plot. However, at some point it has to break down. JKR writes interesting characters and twisty plots, but under heavy scrutiny it becomes obvious that some things aren't meant to be...well...scrutinized. I've noticed that fen in other fandoms mention the same phenomenon.

So, to all of you who were/are in other fandoms...do you do the same kind of intense dissection? And how successful is it? Do some works actually stand up well to that kind of close reading/viewing?

Comments

[kaiz.livejournal.com]

Nearly every single fandom I've ever been (and the number is getting very large now) has been scrutinized to death! Media fandoms (esp. TV) are among the most problematic, I think, because there are so many external constraints that are placed on the production of the 'source text'. The producers only have so much money, so many minutes per episode, to tell the story...add to the fact that networks place constraints on the final product, actors have contracts that influence the content, etc. so by necessity, some things *have* to get left out or altered to fit TV or film format. Usually those seem to be the things that fans are most obessive about! (i.e. continuity, scene closure) In my experience, very few shows stand up to extremely close scrutiny for those external reasons.

With books, individual authors have a bit more control over the final product. Of course, that can lead to problems of its own, when a canon is written so tightly that it's nearly impossible to ask (and answer) certain popular types of fanfiction what-ifs. A tightly written canon isn't always the best, IMO, for sparking fanfiction.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

Nearly every single fandom I've ever been (and the number is getting very large now) has been scrutinized to death!

We are rather demanding as fans, aren't we? *laughs*

I've never been in a TV-based fandom, so what you're saying here is fascinating.

I've always wondered about how stories are written. I mean, during the season there is a new show every week! I've seen that some stories are like "bridges" that cover the gap between shows...very, very interesting.

A tightly written canon isn't always the best, IMO, for sparking fanfiction.

I think you're absolutely right.

I keep thinking that HBP has certainly taken some of the wind out of the HP fandom's sails. It was so open-ended before HBP came out; we could write so many pairings and do so many interesting plot explorations, mostly because there weren't almost any concrete relationships. I'm reading three Snupin fics that occasionally move in parallel lines, mostly because the ending of HBP was so straightforward.

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

yeah, but i think the big difference is that mediafans on the whole tend to be more focused on the TEXT...before HP i hadn't seen the What Would Rowling Think line of argument as much...

[clare-dragonfly.livejournal.com]

I have a friend who used to complain about it being impossible to write LotR fanfic, because Tolkien didn't leave anything out, ever.

[furiosity.livejournal.com]

Oh God, yes. We had such a long wait between the first film and the sequel in the Matrix fandom that I remember, in 2001 I was theorising about the Red/Blue dichotomy being a metaphor for the Doppler effect. *titters at self*

We'd actually peaked around 2002 and couldn't wait for the sequels already, because there were so many theories with no confirmation one way or another. Hell, the first Matrix film got entire books written about the philosophy of it in the span of 3 years *owns all of these and has read them multiple times*. It's the nature of fandom, though, to dissect things; whether or not these things are meant to be dissected is usually irrelevant.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

We had such a long wait between the first film and the sequel in the Matrix fandom that I remember, in 2001 I was theorising about the Red/Blue dichotomy being a metaphor for the Doppler effect. *titters at self*

Before I ever got onto the internet, I spent a lot of free time thinking about the Matrix movies. Even after part two appeared, I was still tremendously absorbed in theories about the Matrix and the movies, and it was a great little hobby, especially on long trips. A mental puzzle of sorts. Thank goodness I didn't have a computer because I never would have surfaced.

It's the nature of fandom, though, to dissect things

Hell, yeah.

Was the Matrix fandom delighted or distressed by the third movie, overall? What do you think?

[gillieweed.livejournal.com]

Nothing could stand up to the nutty scrutiny fans put their canon through. Nothing was ever meant to stand up to that. Literacry criticism has been going on since there's been literature and look what non-fiction writers have to put up with.
Of course none of this comes close to the nitpicking fans have put the HP books through.
There are things I really dislike about JKRs books and things I love, but I wouldn't wish the sort of scrutiny her books have been put through on anyone.

[gillieweed.livejournal.com]

literary. duh.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, I cry all the time when I'm criticized...oh, wait. heh.

I really do think that her books have some parts which do stand up to major scrutiny...but overall, she's written a deeper-than-your-average-mystery-book, not a new branch of philosophy.

[mehitobel-ny.livejournal.com]

Nothing could stand up to the nutty scrutiny fans put their canon through. Nothing was ever meant to stand up to that.

Especially if you're talking about a work of popular entertainment. Saul Bellow or Joyce Carol Oates might have in the back of their minds "I'd better cross my t's and dot my i's, 'cause otherwise, you know somebody's gonna notice" (well, not Saul, so much, on account of he's dead now, but you know...) But when JKR started writing, she had an idea for a story - a children's story - and I suppose (I'm extrapolating here) her goal was to get her plot on paper, with the themes that interested her, in a style that would be engaging, suspenseful and well-written. Things grew, as they do, and she had to tie them together. Some got tied together better than others, some fell into place brilliantly, and as she's indicated, some just had to be rewritten. I suspect that some of that stuff was sort of jimmy-rigged with chewing gum and paper clips.
And maybe that's for the best, to some extent. If a story is too finely 'crafted' as opposed to having bumps and flaws generated by spontaneity and flashes of inspiration, it probably would be rather dull.

Valis's question made me think of the world's most famous fandom - Star Trek. These people are (possibly) even more deranged than the HP fandom. And particularly for the original show, you look at the meager 'canon' (if you can call Tribbles canon with a straight face) and the anal analysis it's been subjected to. (Trekkies is hilarious, btw, if you haven't seen it.)

I'm not in anyway suggesting that anyone here is the sort of person addressed in the SNL "Get a Life!" skit (http://snltranscripts.jt.org/86/86hgetalife.phtml) (though I think there just might be a few HP fans in that category.

Charlie: Yeah, Episode 25, that's where you and the crew of the Enterprise get attacked by these spores? And started acting real weird, like hippies and stuff?
***
Charlie: Well um, I was wondering if you could settle a bet for me and my friends, okay? Um, like, when you... um, left your quarters for the last time? And you opened up your safe? Um... what was the combination?

William Shatner: [ lengthy pause, incredulous expression ] I-I-I don't know! I mean, it's been a long time! I, uh... I don't know that! Uh, okay?

Charlie: Okay! Okay!

*ahem* Except now, for HP and other fandom magnets. it's multiplied a thousandfold. At gigahertz speed.

[chrysantza.livejournal.com]

In the other fandom I'm in, the Earth's Children fandom, people dissect the books like crazy. We also have the bonus of a lot of science nerds (me included) scrutinizing the anthropology and archeology behind the series. We practically had people killing each other over the question of whether Neanderthals and modern humans ever cross-bred.

I think this obsessive dissection is quite common to most fandoms. It's fun, but it can go a little overboard at times. Sometimes a minor character is just a minor character...

[valis2.livejournal.com]

I think this obsessive dissection is quite common to most fandoms. It's fun, but it can go a little overboard at times. Sometimes a minor character is just a minor character...

Hee! So I see fen are the same everywhere. ;)

Earth's children...I think that's Orson Scott Card, but can't remember right off the top of my head.

Fascinating that so many educated people are having such discussions! That's one great thing fandom does, I think. (Well, besides causing people to CAPSLOCK at each other.)

[author-by-night.livejournal.com]

Interesting... yes, in that way, that's true. But I always saw other things as less intense - the need for fics that strictly follow canon, fics that are at least four pages a chapter, etc.

The Darkover example

[jaelle-n-gilla.livejournal.com]

I've played in Marion Zimmer-Bradley's Darkover world for a while (who would have guessed? ;-), and, yes, it is all the same. People dissect the stories and the stories don't hold together well when dissected.
The map of Darkover is a patchwork at best. If you dig into it, it looks like tectonic movement has the speed of a sailboat on Darkover. The astronimical situation of that unlikely planet is not a scientific one either. The time lines vary, there are small inconsistencies in characters and people can get into heated discussions about how a never-written bit of story might have looked in the background and how that effected the whole thing.

While I enjoyed some discussions, I find it disturbing how some people insist on certain facts which they derive by logic from a series that is built completely on a writer's imagination.

MZB herself stated more than once that her focus is on plots, not on maps or physics or biology or any other logical background. She simply didn't care. Personally I can live with that and immerse into the story, over-reading deliberately one or the other inconsistency. I find it sad that some people can't.

Re: The Darkover example

[valis2.livejournal.com]

MZB herself stated more than once that her focus is on plots, not on maps or physics or biology or any other logical background.

Yes, and I think that's true for JKR in many ways as well. Some things just don't work. Even her magical system is a bit inconsistent in ways. The thing is, tearing it all apart makes us understand some things better, but it also points out flaws, which some people try to fix (exactly what you're describing about people who "insist on certain facts").

I always meant to read Darkover books, just never got around to it. Still, they're on my list.

[b2wm.livejournal.com]

Besides Potterverse and LotR, I flirt with the Star Wars and Animorphs fandoms from time to time. You want something that gets shaken down by even the humblest of overthinking the fandom, I point you in the direction of irregular webcomic vs. Coruscant. Despite the occasional physics problems, though, (and the right-out "Georgie Boy/K.A., you're contradicting yourself again" moments,) both series have their good points. Just don't mention the Holiday Special or the Animorphs TV series.

Even Tolkien gets overanalysed from time to time. The trilogy stands up well enough, but there are instances where "The Hobbit" contradicts the Appendicies, which contradicts "The Lost Tales," which contradicts the Silm, etc. Plus, leaving Fili, Kili, and Thranduil out of this, the more one reads about Luthien, Arwen, and Galadriel, the more Sueish tendencies some find. Fortunately, that which gets debated all the time can generally be smoothed out with the insistence that the Silm was unfinished and the Unfinished Tales are the author's AUs. Plus, it inspires the good kind of crackfic.

I don't overanalyse Discworld meta too much myself, but I've seen plenty of signs that it, too, doesn't always hold up. Pratchett, like Tolkien nuts, generally will take the inconsistencies and run with them.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

Even Tolkien gets overanalysed from time to time. The trilogy stands up well enough, but there are instances where "The Hobbit" contradicts the Appendicies, which contradicts "The Lost Tales," which contradicts the Silm, etc.

How fascinating! I had no idea that there issues with continuity there.

I've tried reading the Silm, but just couldn't get past the big cosmic symphony stuff.

[cats-are-snakes.livejournal.com]

My first fandom was The Secret Adventures of Jules Verne. Obscure, yea. The actors and even the creator were so accessible because the show was small. Lots of pros were/are in the fandom, making for some amazing fanfic.

Since only one season was ever filmed (show got mired in legal battle), gaps left open deliberately were never filled. The creator, Gavin Scott, had plans for those gaps for later seasons. He's mentioned them.

Nothing can stand up to the nit-picking fans use. If there are gaps, we bitch. If gaps get filled in a manner we don't like, we bitch. Someone is not going to like the gap-filler no matter what it is. Automatic bitching.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

How interesting! And especially even more so, because he's gone on record with gap-fillers. Now that's a commitment to a fandom.

[fernwithy.livejournal.com]

Oh, yeah, definitely. Fans have a lot more time and hindsight to go through the source material and find inconsistencies, while the creator is busy, well, creating. It's like initally blasting a tunnel--the creator breaks all those rocks and gets a solid tunnel going, and the fans just wander through afterward and can notice that this or that section of the ceiling is higher or lower than another, and that rock broke a weird angle and so on.

In Quantum Leap fandom, Don Bellisario once referred to the time travel conundrums by saying "Don't investigate this too closely"--his point being that the technical junk was not the point. But of course fen, having all the time in the world, want to know how exactly your body leaps through time but you look like the person you leap into and it doesn't matter whether or not you're in contact with the project or it knows anything about you... well, basically the Big Don was saying, "It's a plot device, deal with it," because for him the point of the stories was that this was the case, and he wanted to see how it went. DITTC (which can conveniently be pronounced "ditzy") was pretty common when it came to total inconsistencies.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

the creator breaks all those rocks and gets a solid tunnel going, and the fans just wander through afterward and can notice that this or that section of the ceiling is higher or lower than another

Oh, that's a very interesting way of looking at it! I agree, too. Despite the creator's intention to think it through backwards and forwards, there have to be little things that he/she misses.

And I am so snagging DITTC. What an awesome term! Thanks. ;)

[our-innocence.livejournal.com]

I honestly think it depends on how the 'canon' is presented.

In anime, there are usually three avenues for 'canon'. The Manga- book form, the actual anime- the televised/animation, and occasionally there are fillers, sometimes as tv episodes, sometimes as short prints in magazines. Because the creator of the idea- let's say Manga X for a moment- may have creative control over the whole franchise, they can tweak it to their will in the anime, what they couldn't do in the manga, or vice versa, since sometimes the anime comes before the manga. Because of this, I've seen [or rather, had my siblings tell me] that it can be argued six ways to Sunday and seven ways back about what constitues canon. For example, in Naruto anime, which came after the manga, which came after the 'pilot' in a magazine, there are filler episodes, and there are questions as to whether the filler shows constitute canon, so long as they don't contradict the manga facts.

I find the HP fandom in a smaller class of fandom- to a degree- because we only have one type of canon- the books [and the author's words in interviews and such, but basically the books.] Star Wars canon has changed because what we knew from Leia's words about Padme in the original trilogy- the implication that she had known her mother before she died- disappeared when Padme dies at the end of Revenge of the Sith.Additionally, Star Wars has the EU, or Extended Universe, which are books and comics written by other various authors, as well as the Clone Wars series. What is 'canon', for some SW fans, is movie-based facts only, whereas some take EU series [like the Young Jedi series] as part of canon, so long as it's derived from the SW databank @ Starwars.com. There is additional confusion stemming from the novelisations of the movies- for example, there's a SW book called Shatterpoints that deals primarily with Mace Windu. The author of that book also happened to write the novel for Revenge of the Sith, so some facts from Shatterpoints, which aren't from the movie, find their way into the novelisation. Given that there are many EU authors, confusion is bound to happen. After a while, plenty of us are ready to say 'nuts to this' and take it as face value. Read the five different versions of The Lay of Berelaind, and you'll probably be ready to give up too. Some fandoms simply weren't created for deep discussions. If the characters aren't meant to be that complex, then the plot and symbolism might not be either.

Because different fandoms have different resources for canon information, I think that while all fandoms undergo deep scrutiny, ultimately some are going to be a lot 'looser' than others. Add to the fact that some fandoms do not have the moral viewpoints of HP [like Frank Miller's Sin City, for instance], there's not as much to look into, and thus it's not as dissected as the HP fandom- there's simply not as much to dig, because it's presented much more clearly and plainly.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

In anime, there are usually three avenues for 'canon'.

And three times as many possibilities for confusion. Heh.

I find the HP fandom in a smaller class of fandom- to a degree- because we only have one type of canon- the books [and the author's words in interviews and such, but basically the books.]

Yes, sometimes the movies really seem to be regarded by fandom mostly as "live-action fanfiction".

I've heard of some of the EU problems, and I remember selling the books when I still worked at the bookstore. So many authors, all writing in one fandom...it has to be tough to keep the one true plot. Whereas with JKR, it is only the one set of books, and it's the interpretations that differ from fan to fan.

Very interesting. Thanks!

[flameofdeath.livejournal.com]

Star Wars. Like WOAH.

Remember, we had over two DECADES between the OT and the prequel. I remember one of the biggest complaints about The Phantom Menace (besides Jar-Jar. *shudders*) was the aspect that midichlorians affected the Force in a person. Here, people were finding religious and spiritual ways to explain it so when LucasFilms gave us that explanation, the fandom erupted.

Also, I've met some disgruntled fans who don't like the reason Anakin turned to the Dark Side. They imagined this dangerous mission and elaborate theories that when they saw the whole "I want to save my wife," thing---they felt it lacked.

Fans aren't ever completely happy with the fandom and we scrutinize everything. But I guess that's the fun in it?

[valis2.livejournal.com]

I remember one of the biggest complaints about The Phantom Menace (besides Jar-Jar. *shudders*) was the aspect that midichlorians affected the Force in a person.

I can only imagine the furor that exploded after TPM. What an anvil he dropped!

We do tend to come up with some fascinating theories, don't we? And then it turns out that the explanation is actually much simpler.

But I guess that's the fun in it?

Exactly! :)

[schnoogle.livejournal.com]

Actually, HP is the only one of the four fandoms I've been in that I've noticed the intense dissection. In my other fandoms (all crime TV shows - Law & Order: Special Victims Unit, Law & Order: Trial by Jury and NCIS), there have been elements of it but nothing more. I'd say this is mostly because the shows themselves don't have many arcs (especially not the Law & Orders!) - it's just case by case, with tidbits of the character's lives thrown in.

Considering the lack of the character's lives in the shows, I've always found it very amusing that the fanfiction is all romance. Us fans are definitely filling in the gaps.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

Considering the lack of the character's lives in the shows, I've always found it very amusing that the fanfiction is all romance. Us fans are definitely filling in the gaps.

It's always about the romance, isn't it? *laughs* Poor genfic, it's so scarce.

Yeah, I can see that fanfiction based on procedural shows must really follow the characters and pull out some romance. Heaven knows that most of those don't bother to develop the characters much, in favor of their weekly quest for the truth.

Here from the D_S.

[fish-are-evil.livejournal.com]

I'm in mostly anime fandoms (HP is, in fact, my only non-anime fandom at the moment) and honestly, none of my other fandoms (Angel Sanctuary, Yu-Gi-Oh!, Fullmetal Alchemist, Chobits)are scrutinized to the extent that Harry Potter is. Yes, they're scrutinized, particularly FMA, but none of them approach the degree of scrutiny to which HP is held up. I don't know if it's because of the circles I run in or what.

Re: Here from the D_S.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

Oh, very interesting! I always wondered about the anime-based fandoms. I know there are a lot of fanartists who do a lot of interesting work, but I don't know much about the ficcers.

HP does seem to have a lot of people who explore every twist and turn in canon.

[dancinguniverse.livejournal.com]

I think fans generally do tear apart their source material. I think it's part of what makes us fans. But I do think HP is a little unique. First: a lot of fandom media are TV shows. As such, they may have one writer/director/producer who is God (Joss, Aaron Sorkin, need I go on?), but the fact is that the episodes, while reviewed by God, are written by many people. The opportunity for disconiuity increases exponentially. And sometimes shit happens that changes story lines from what was originally intended (actors quit or die, shows get canceled, people just change their minds).

In movies this is less so, but then movies, once made, are usually done. Yes, there is going to be a Pirates of the Carribbean sequel. But I sincerely doubt there are people (or many of them, at any rate) who are expecting some huge thing from it. They're looking for more hot Depp and Bloom, and maybe some fun stuff about Bootstrap Bill.

With Rowling... we know she still has character development and hidden info about people, we know she's going to pull in stuff from the other books, we know that everything in them was planned and hers, and not, "Well, that writer from last week mentioned this Slayer Super Purse thing, so I guess that should be important... and um, well we need someone to betray Buffy, how about Giles? Yeah, they'll never see that one coming." A detail in HP either is important or it isn't. I trust JKR enough to believe she's not searching for ideas for book 7 by flipping through book 2 and saying, "Oh, I mentioned a statue there, how about if I make it really a stone person... yeah, cool." In Buffy, the writers had a tendency to say, "Ooh, let's do an episode with Spike backstory," without seeming to actually watch any of the other episodes with Spike backstory. If one person were able to handle it all, I'm sure all fandoms would make much more sense.

JKR's series falls into place with examination (or we think it does). There have been relatively few stupid things like gaping continuity errors, and relatively little to leave to fanon (little that's important to the series, anyway, though certainly not to fandom. How dare she not tell us Snape's favorite kind of tea?). In other fandoms, we're forced to make things up, explain away writer errors, and it gets tiring, and while it's fun and I don't think anyone plans to stop any time soon, I think it's a bit more universally rewarding in HP.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

As such, they may have one writer/director/producer who is God (Joss, Aaron Sorkin, need I go on?), but the fact is that the episodes, while reviewed by God, are written by many people. The opportunity for disconiuity increases exponentially.

Yes, absolutely! So many cooks in the kitchen means we have a higher chance for errors.

I've heard how shows have a "bible" of their own, but I can imagine that there are plenty of chances of distortion---certainly actors suggest different lines, or may give a reading that brings out another aspect of the words.

I totally agree with you about how the show writers create...they probably think very much in terms of "episodes", while JKR is thinking in "overall arc".

How dare she not tell us Snape's favorite kind of tea?

Hahaha!! Yes, exactly! I'm still waiting.

[auctasinistra.livejournal.com]

HP has nothing on The Sherlock Holmes fandom -- if only because of its lifespan. It really is the original fandom in the modern sense, and reams -- libraries -- worth of analysis have been written about it for about a century. Every freakin' sneeze, every pregnant pause, every walk on character, every mole on the chin of every walk on character -- immensely scholarly men (and women) have pored over every word of the Canon (the first usage of the word in a nonreligious, fandom-related sense) and scratched out treatises exploring theories from the serious to the totally wacky. It's obviously less teeny-bopper-shipping-frenzied in tone than HP, but it's really no less obsessed with minutiae.

[valis2.livejournal.com]

Wow! How absolutely fascinating.

One of the people on my flist is heavily into SH, and it's amazing how many books have been written about the subject. It really is an unusual fandom, and quite interesting.

[author-by-night.livejournal.com]

With Earth's Children (a series about the Ice Age - sort of)... not so much with fics.

Most of the fics at ecfans.com, for instance, have very little to do with the main characters, or even lesser ones.

Also - this isn't that related, but quality is far less important in that fandom. People get away with writing one page chapters, and are never questioned for it. The interesting thing is that most of these fandomers are adults.

As for canon itself, yes, there's a lot of scrutiny, but not like in Harry Potter fandom. For the most part, one dimensional characters are accepted as such - there's only one that really got complained about in that regard, and it was because previous to meeting her, we were given an image of someone who was definitely worse than the token brat.

[chrysantza.livejournal.com]

I still think Marona's a proto-Malfoy. Even her physical description (light blonde hair, gray eyes) is Dracoish. And her personality is JUST like Draco.