Brains and conversations
Aug. 15th, 2009 12:47 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
valis2So I've been brooding rather intensely for a few days, and it's brought some focus about my interpersonal conversational skills. Or rather, lack thereof.
I don't think I have ever had a clearer picture of just how much effort it takes for me to converse with people. Depending on who I'm having the conversation with, I engage layers, sometimes multiple layers, of modifiers in my brain to prevent the wrong thing from being said.
So where did these layers come from? Well, my father is definitely where I eventually learned a lot of logic and analysis from. I am not logical by nature, you see. My "logic" is actually just a huge repository of remembered situations (or even remembered stories by other people). If something occurs, I look through my logic bag, and try to see if anything similar has happened to me, or if I've ever heard a story like that. Based on that, I'm sometimes able to formulate the best course. This "logic" also fuels the layers, in a way. I am very thoughtless in my conversations, and my father would often take me aside later and explain which things I'd said that were "wrong" and might have hurt the other person's feelings.
My mother, for example, likes to use self-deprecation to make other people feel better. "Oh, I can't draw at all! I'm the worst artist in the world! I can't even draw a smiley face!" she'll say. I picked this trait up early, and used it quite a bit. However, it backfires, and often. People get really sick of hearing you put yourself down (an ex-fiancée once went into a rage about it), and the worst is when you insult yourself in some way and the other person gets insulted by it indirectly. For example, one time I heard my mother talking about how fat she was and she went on and on about it, and her best friend just sat there with an uncomfortable look on her face, and then I suddenly realized that her best friend outweighs her by at least a hundred pounds. So this is something I've worked very hard to stamp out of my speech. I've also tried to get rid of another thing I picked up from my mother, which is the tendency to say, "I like it," and "oh, I hate that" about absolutely everything that anyone brings up. Hey, it's no problem to say it occasionally, but when you are just making every conversation a litany of your likes and dislikes, you are not really talking to someone. Especially if you're not explaining why you like it or don't like it. Especially if you're simply interrupting throughout the whole thing to say whether you like it or not. I think about conversations I had in my early twenties and I just cringe.
The emphasis on "right" and "wrong" words can be really difficult to get around. I often tailspin into paranoia, certain that someone is avoiding me because of something I've said, or implied, or that I wasn't interesting enough. This is exacerbated by society, in some ways. We are expected to not point out stupidity or insults in our conversations; most people will simply "be polite" and continue talking, and then later laugh about the gaffes to other people. I've done it myself. The problem with this is that I have to then rely on my faulty logic system and my elaborate layers system to prevent these gaffes, and sometimes it's just not possible. And because no one will tell you when you've really made a gaffe, I am left to imagine gaffes where there are none.
Of course, when I am certain about a real gaffe, it makes me cringe in a way that is pretty extreme, and I can beat myself up like nobody's business about it. I go back over old conversations, and I pull out flaws and magnify the stupid things I've said until I cannot understand why anyone would want to be friends with me, much less even talk to me. It's rather extreme, and usually I'm able to take a deep breath and slip off to the side of it. Sometimes, though, I sit and stew for a day or two, and this entry is the result of that. Just trying to understand the issues involved with this is helpful.
For me, online communication is a huge relief in some ways, and a new kind of fail in others. The layers are a little confused, especially at first, by this situation; I have no visual cues to set the proper layers in place, for example. I have no idea if I'm talking to rich, poor, young, old, the Pope, whatever. But I have the advantage of having time to think things through before I post them. I can check my words for double meanings that I didn't notice when I first thought of them. This eliminates a bunch of gaffes. Honestly, I'm terrible at subtext most of the time. The unsaid and unseen can flummox me. Nonverbal cues are not as obvious to me as they are to most, though I do still see them sometimes. So being online and having a little extra time, and not having the layers all pressing down at once screaming "DO NOT OFFEND HER! SAY SOMETHING CLEVER NOW NOW NOW!" is helpful, but then again, I still have to work very hard to avoid saying the Wrong Thing.
Please don't look at this as "Now I have to reassure Valis that she is not an evil bitch from another galaxy and that I like her" situation. I'm serious. This is me trying to know myself, and sharing the process, and hoping to hear of your own conversational styles and experiences.
I don't think I have ever had a clearer picture of just how much effort it takes for me to converse with people. Depending on who I'm having the conversation with, I engage layers, sometimes multiple layers, of modifiers in my brain to prevent the wrong thing from being said.
- By layers I refer to processes meant to take certain things about my conversational partners into account. You could also term them as "filters," but I'm not certain that the word correctly conveys the meaning. I once took a quiz on LJ that claimed my conversational style was called "the Changeling." It was an incredibly accurate result. I am a different person with different people. With
- Age. Am I speaking to someone young, or old? If so, I'll temper my conversation accordingly. I won't bother with references that either is not likely to get.
- Position. Is this person somehow my superior, or could impact my job or do they know one of my bosses? This layer is so horribly intense that sometimes I end up stammering like an idiot.
- OMG THEY ARE SO COOL. This is another layer that just kills me. It's particularly horrible at a con, for example, when I'm talking to someone really amazing like
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
alchemia, someone I really admire, someone who is super talented. Sometimes I manage to get out something that resembles speech; most of the time I just manage to say something really stupid. - Customer. Is this person thinking about buying something from me now, or maybe in the future? Another tough layer. I have to weed out anything that might possibly offend.
- Friend of a friend. I'm out to lunch with my sister, let's say, and her boyfriend's best friend. I have to somehow not embarrass both myself, and my sister. A unique kind of pressure.
- I want to say something clever now. Oh, this is the worst, this is the one that just destroys me. It means that I just about completely stop processing just so that I can desperately think of something clever to say. And sadly enough, if I weren't trying to think of something clever, I probably would have thought of something clever.
- Am I interrupting too much? Am I doing something weird with my hands? Am I smiling strangely? Internal questions often push me right over the edge and stop processing dead in its tracks. Especially when I immediately start obsessing over the last hundred conversations and whether I've interrupted too much or done something weird with my hands.
bookwench2096 I am sarcastic and absolutely raunchy. With my friends in WI I am less sarcastic and absolutely not raunchy at all.A few examples of layers:
So where did these layers come from? Well, my father is definitely where I eventually learned a lot of logic and analysis from. I am not logical by nature, you see. My "logic" is actually just a huge repository of remembered situations (or even remembered stories by other people). If something occurs, I look through my logic bag, and try to see if anything similar has happened to me, or if I've ever heard a story like that. Based on that, I'm sometimes able to formulate the best course. This "logic" also fuels the layers, in a way. I am very thoughtless in my conversations, and my father would often take me aside later and explain which things I'd said that were "wrong" and might have hurt the other person's feelings.
My mother, for example, likes to use self-deprecation to make other people feel better. "Oh, I can't draw at all! I'm the worst artist in the world! I can't even draw a smiley face!" she'll say. I picked this trait up early, and used it quite a bit. However, it backfires, and often. People get really sick of hearing you put yourself down (an ex-fiancée once went into a rage about it), and the worst is when you insult yourself in some way and the other person gets insulted by it indirectly. For example, one time I heard my mother talking about how fat she was and she went on and on about it, and her best friend just sat there with an uncomfortable look on her face, and then I suddenly realized that her best friend outweighs her by at least a hundred pounds. So this is something I've worked very hard to stamp out of my speech. I've also tried to get rid of another thing I picked up from my mother, which is the tendency to say, "I like it," and "oh, I hate that" about absolutely everything that anyone brings up. Hey, it's no problem to say it occasionally, but when you are just making every conversation a litany of your likes and dislikes, you are not really talking to someone. Especially if you're not explaining why you like it or don't like it. Especially if you're simply interrupting throughout the whole thing to say whether you like it or not. I think about conversations I had in my early twenties and I just cringe.
The emphasis on "right" and "wrong" words can be really difficult to get around. I often tailspin into paranoia, certain that someone is avoiding me because of something I've said, or implied, or that I wasn't interesting enough. This is exacerbated by society, in some ways. We are expected to not point out stupidity or insults in our conversations; most people will simply "be polite" and continue talking, and then later laugh about the gaffes to other people. I've done it myself. The problem with this is that I have to then rely on my faulty logic system and my elaborate layers system to prevent these gaffes, and sometimes it's just not possible. And because no one will tell you when you've really made a gaffe, I am left to imagine gaffes where there are none.
Of course, when I am certain about a real gaffe, it makes me cringe in a way that is pretty extreme, and I can beat myself up like nobody's business about it. I go back over old conversations, and I pull out flaws and magnify the stupid things I've said until I cannot understand why anyone would want to be friends with me, much less even talk to me. It's rather extreme, and usually I'm able to take a deep breath and slip off to the side of it. Sometimes, though, I sit and stew for a day or two, and this entry is the result of that. Just trying to understand the issues involved with this is helpful.
For me, online communication is a huge relief in some ways, and a new kind of fail in others. The layers are a little confused, especially at first, by this situation; I have no visual cues to set the proper layers in place, for example. I have no idea if I'm talking to rich, poor, young, old, the Pope, whatever. But I have the advantage of having time to think things through before I post them. I can check my words for double meanings that I didn't notice when I first thought of them. This eliminates a bunch of gaffes. Honestly, I'm terrible at subtext most of the time. The unsaid and unseen can flummox me. Nonverbal cues are not as obvious to me as they are to most, though I do still see them sometimes. So being online and having a little extra time, and not having the layers all pressing down at once screaming "DO NOT OFFEND HER! SAY SOMETHING CLEVER NOW NOW NOW!" is helpful, but then again, I still have to work very hard to avoid saying the Wrong Thing.
Please don't look at this as "Now I have to reassure Valis that she is not an evil bitch from another galaxy and that I like her" situation. I'm serious. This is me trying to know myself, and sharing the process, and hoping to hear of your own conversational styles and experiences.
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(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-15 05:22 pm (UTC)No one is really thinking about your conversation as much as you are (they're thinking about their own)! If you demonstrate basic kindness in your actions, people will put a positive spin on what you say because they'll assume (quite rightly) that you mean well.
Second, in-person conversations are about 75% patter, melodically and culturally pleasing pauses, questions, sympathetic nods. Think of it as learning how to dance. Listen to conversations around you by socially adept people, and you'll pick this up fast. It's not that you're being disingenuous, in fact people are comforted by familiar conversational rhythms, and a conversation is really more about being with the other person than saying something in particular.
Anyway... that was enough of a ramble to make me worried about offending you! Hahaha. ;)
Hope you are doing well!
(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-15 05:42 pm (UTC)1) I'm actually really opinionated, bossy, and a bit judgmental
2) I have created in myself a strong reluctance to express my opinions to others
When I was a teenager, I was one of those people who thought, "god, I'm right, and the person I'm talking to is an idiot" all the time. And truth to tell, a lot of the time I still feel that way. But the problem is that being right doesn't get you points in some universal scoring system, and in fact insisting that you're right all the time loses you friends. So somewhere along the line I decided "right, just try and get along." So I've gradually taught myself to suppress, suppress, suppress, and now I'm at the point where I find myself hedging before I say anything, and agonizing about whether I've made an ass of myself afterwards.
In some ways, I think I'd like to try and find more of a middle ground, be able to be more honest and/or care less about what other people think. I don't know how I'd go about doing that, thought.
And like you, I think that online communication is a mixed blessing. On the one hand, there's having the leisure to think more about what I say before I say it. On the other hand, the lack of contextual clues and tone can be a problem. And there's the part where everything you say is on record permanently after you say it, so if you fuck up, you can never pretend it didn't happen. D:
Yes, fascinating stuff!
(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-15 06:11 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-15 06:11 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-15 06:49 pm (UTC)Mein Gott, I love the internet. While still sitting around worrying for hours, and I mean staying up nights obsessing, about why one person doesn't comment on stories anymore, of if someone took something I said three weeks ago in the wrong way. Or even if my username is offensive. Because, you know, when it's on the internet it's there for good. Even this. *meep* (Apologies to my sister, who may not hate me, and may be offended by the implication.)
This is why I seldom invite friends anymore. I don't want people to feel obligated to enter the Stupid Zone and then put up with my ridiculous (raunchy, pornographic, depressing, deathfilled) drivel. My only comfort is, I'm pretty sure none of my friends are secretly the Pope. Now that would be fatally embarrassing.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-15 06:59 pm (UTC)I found that in a lot of situations, it's quite easy to clarify ambiguity by asking, and by telling the other person that I ask because I try to understand. It saves a lot of the agony of being nervous about doing something wrong.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-15 07:02 pm (UTC)My conversation style usually features a lot of emming and ahing and long silent INFJ pauses as I try to figure out what I am rambling about, and/or how to put my thoughts into words, and I pray that I do not speak hurtful nonsense. I ask God, "put Your seal upon my heart and my mouth." I try not to worry too much :-)
(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-15 07:28 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-15 07:37 pm (UTC)THIS. SO MUCH THIS. Gah, so much of this whole post makes so much sense to me.
You know, I don't really have any RL friends, and I blame it on my inability to converse. I'll be perfectly honest and admit that I don't enjoy spending time talking about things like, well, the cute thing someone's kid did last night or how so-and-so saw so-and-so with so-and-so and isn't he married anyway, but really, if I knew how to respond properly in conversation, I'm thinking I could more easily find people with whom I have things in common and can connect on some level.
Even IMing is often too much for me. It's not face-to-face, and therefore I can type and re-type until something sounds right, but there's still some degree, of, well, "instant" to it. Talking to someone I've never IMed before, even someone I know from LJ and love to death, is nerve-wracking beyond all belief. Some of the best conversations I've ever had have been back-and-forth in LJ comments over several days, really.
So. I am not going to do the pity thing and pet you on the head and say omg but you're awesome (even though you are, in fact, awesome) because I know that's not the response you want, and I also know that getting that response can be kinda insulting when you're honestly just trying to talk things out that are in your head. I will, however, say that I totally get where you're coming from, and oh god, you're so not alone in it. It's kinda funny how many of us have such issues socialising offline.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-15 08:28 pm (UTC)*hugs* Yeah, I'm quite certain that this entire thing is indicative of being human in general. hee! Thanks for the sweet words.
No one is really thinking about your conversation as much as you are (they're thinking about their own)! If you demonstrate basic kindness in your actions, people will put a positive spin on what you say because they'll assume (quite rightly) that you mean well.
Very wisely spoken, and very smart words, indeed!
Second, in-person conversations are about 75% patter, melodically and culturally pleasing pauses, questions, sympathetic nods. Think of it as learning how to dance. Listen to conversations around you by socially adept people, and you'll pick this up fast. It's not that you're being disingenuous, in fact people are comforted by familiar conversational rhythms, and a conversation is really more about being with the other person than saying something in particular.
Once in a while I say something in a very funny way that isn't really funny--and people laugh and then kind of go, wait, what? You're totally right--it's about the tone, the up and down of the voice, the movements, etc. And sometimes I just don't have a handle on those things!
Anyway... that was enough of a ramble to make me worried about offending you! Hahaha. ;)
LOL! ;)
Hope you are doing well!
Oh yes, it always helps to put things like these into words--that is one of the best ways for me to work through things, honestly.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-15 08:44 pm (UTC)1) I'm actually really opinionated, bossy, and a bit judgmental
2) I have created in myself a strong reluctance to express my opinions to others
I am so with you on both, actually. One of the layers I have automatically pulls back on any attempt to disagree with anyone I am talking to--well, except for Husband, lol!
So I've gradually taught myself to suppress, suppress, suppress, and now I'm at the point where I find myself hedging before I say anything, and agonizing about whether I've made an ass of myself afterwards.
I cannot nod enough in response to this. I have such a fear of verbal gaffes, and I often employ fierce filtering in an effort to stave off the dreaded Conversational Regret.
And there's the part where everything you say is on record permanently after you say it, so if you fuck up, you can never pretend it didn't happen. D:
*shudders* That scares me more than anything, honestly!
*hugs* Thank you for commenting!
(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-15 08:47 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-15 08:52 pm (UTC)The planet of the Loud Geeky Mouthy Girls Who Have Foot-In-Mouth Syndrome And Are Totally Obsessed With Fictional Characters? lol!
While still sitting around worrying for hours, and I mean staying up nights obsessing, about why one person doesn't comment on stories anymore, of if someone took something I said three weeks ago in the wrong way. Or even if my username is offensive.
ONE THOUSAND TIMES YES. I am so damned CONSUMED with comments and counts. And my rational mind knows damned well that it has nothing to do with anything but the little squeaky part of my brain sits and counts and counts and squeaks. It was never as bad in HP because there are just so many who can comment, but in Riptide? There are so few that anyone not commenting kind of stands out and then I feel sad. lol.
This is why I seldom invite friends anymore. I don't want people to feel obligated to enter the Stupid Zone and then put up with my ridiculous (raunchy, pornographic, depressing, deathfilled) drivel.
I can't talk on the phone anymore. If it rings, I cringe, because I just don't want to go through that. I do have one friend who talks to me all the time, but other than that, I'm just not up to it. Yeah, you can say it, I'm a control freak. lol!
(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-15 08:55 pm (UTC)Hells yes, and I am exquisitely good at self-torture. I can make it last and last. For years. Dave Barry (a writer in the States) had one piece where he talked about how his brain liked to pull out awful memories and "fondle" them. When I read that, I was absolutely and completely nodding in total agreement.
I found that in a lot of situations, it's quite easy to clarify ambiguity by asking, and by telling the other person that I ask because I try to understand. It saves a lot of the agony of being nervous about doing something wrong.
Yes, but in my case, I often don't realize until it's too late. Plus, a lot of my interactions are with customers whom I will never see again, and my worries about offending them will go on and on and on. For years, sometimes.
Most of the time I can shrug it off. Once in a while, though, it crawls under my skin and is completely impossible to remove.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-15 08:57 pm (UTC)Aw, that really warms my heart! I absolutely love speaking with you and listening to you speak; you really are so incredibly articulate and fascinating.
My conversation style usually features a lot of emming and ahing and long silent INFJ pauses as I try to figure out what I am rambling about, and/or how to put my thoughts into words, and I pray that I do not speak hurtful nonsense.
hee! Anytime you pause, you know I'm going to fill the space with a lot of silly stuff...*grins and hugs*
And I can't imagine that you would ever say anything hurtful. Much less nonsensical. Trufax.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-15 08:59 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-15 09:05 pm (UTC)Y'know, it's interesting to me how many people are commiserating with me on this entry--honestly, it's not like I thought I was a speshul snowflake or something, but I really didn't think people found conversation that ugh-inducing.
Then again, we are all living on the internet here in LJ-land, so I'm probably preaching to the choir here. heh.
if I knew how to respond properly in conversation, I'm thinking I could more easily find people with whom I have things in common and can connect on some level.
Yeah, that's exactly it. I love talking to people I know really well, because I know what to say. New people? INSTANT HIVES. I don't even want to find out if we have anything in common. I just want to not make an ass out of myself and then get out of the situation. lol.
Talking to someone I've never IMed before, even someone I know from LJ and love to death, is nerve-wracking beyond all belief.
WORD. I often have dizzifying moments when I think about pinging someone. Seriously. Those first few convos make me so crazy. IMing is such a stylized form of communication, and it relies even more heavily on knowing what the other person's intent is, which makes it even harder for me to understand.
So. I am not going to do the pity thing and pet you on the head and say omg but you're awesome (even though you are, in fact, awesome) because I know that's not the response you want, and I also know that getting that response can be kinda insulting when you're honestly just trying to talk things out that are in your head. I will, however, say that I totally get where you're coming from, and oh god, you're so not alone in it. It's kinda funny how many of us have such issues socialising offline.
Thank you a thousand times--you totally get it. Partially it just helps to know I'm not alone, because that can help take some of the nervous edge off. But yeah, I'm really happy to read the comments and find out what other people do and think. That's the best part of this.
Thank you SO much for the sweet words and helpful comment--I really appreciate it! You are totally awesome, my friend. *giant hugs*
(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-15 09:15 pm (UTC)Want to hear something completely retarded? (Okay, two things, because one is that I'm going to be questioning my use of that word for a week or so.) And the other is: I know who comments on my stories. Tiny community, you know everyone in it. So one person stops and I freak out. OMG, I SUCK AND SHE HATES ME! Then I go, wait! Maybe she sick, or gone on vacation. Valis (yes, I use you in my pathetic justifications) goes out of town and doesn't comment all the time. That has to be it! Then I see that person all over the place, commenting on everything else, and I'm crushed. I lose sleep and take extra Xanax and have to admit it to my husband, who agrees that it's retarded, and is no help whatsoever. So, Survey Says, ding, ding, ding, I SUCK!
(Now you know why I comment on pretty much everything. We're probably all here because we feel that way. And thanks for always having something nice to say, even when there's not enough Nick.)
And don't even get me started on the phone. Cell only, unlisted, caller ID, separate ringtones for every single person I know (and one for people I don't), and I still have a panic attack when an unknown number comes up. I can't breathe while listening to voicemail. I ask my mom to use email, and then panic at that. (She agrees, btw, that I SUCK!)
But I feel somewhat better now. Hope you do, too. :)
(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-15 09:19 pm (UTC)~ sera
PS: If you do discover that the Pope has a secret LJ, please let me know. *g*
(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-15 09:27 pm (UTC)obsess over chocolate- thats good
obessess over what may or my not be real and what goes on inthe heads of others is just a path to insanity and will drive you nutz. Hugs you just the same. XD
(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-15 09:34 pm (UTC)My first experience with this was in HP. One of my very first LJ friends said she'd read my giant epic HP story, and then later she said..."It's just not my cup of tea." I wanted to bury myself under the patio. Seriously. It was awful.
It did pave the way for a lot of thinking about readers and writing and comments. I drew on my experiences at the bookstore. See, there will be no story that draws everyone to it, no matter how much you love it. Personal preference is incredibly important in selling books. It gets even more important in fanfic. Especially in HP, where there are so many pairings and writers and fic that you can (quite honestly) get completely wrapped up in one pairing--hell, in one kind of genre with one pairing--and still have plenty of fics to read.
So Riptide is a strange experience for me. I want to use the same rationale that I do in HP--maybe they didn't see it, maybe they don't like that pairing, maybe they're lying unconscious on the kitchen floor--but it's a little more difficult when you can count the usual commentors on one hand. Maybe two. I really have to actively put myself into the mode of: I am writing this for myself and it doesn't matter if I get no comments at all. (A terrible lie, but it allows me to get really happy if I only get one comment, and then that allows me to not bury myself under the patio.)
Then I see that person all over the place, commenting on everything else, and I'm crushed.
That is the worst. Seriously. I mean, I always try to take the benefit of a doubt, because I'm sure it's just RL intruding or whatever, but the squeaky part gets all pissy and stupid and that makes me crazy.
Once in a while I read someone's LJ or comments and they mention that they're going to read one of my stories, and I get all unreasonably excited, and then they never do. Or they did but didn't comment. And then I get all sad. I mean, even when I go back and read old stories I sometimes leave comments, y'know? Even if the story didn't resonate hugely with me, I still sometimes leave a line or two just to let the author know I've read. Again, I know it's just RL or not their cup of tea, but this is me, burying myself under the patio, but slowly.
And thanks for always having something nice to say, even when there's not enough Nick.
Dude, I really try, honestly. I have difficulties paying attention when Nick and Cody aren't undressing each other, honestly, or when something hurtlike isn't happening to Nick. Seriously. So I do read your stuff because I like the dialogue and the scenarios and stuff, but I have to apologize for not being more enthusiastic. *nodnod* And then I have to say, that it's sometimes just not my cup of tea to read Murray, you know, and then I feel awful because I think, oh dear, she's going to want to bury herself under the patio.
But I feel somewhat better now. Hope you do, too. :)
Strangely enough, I do. Talking things out always helps. Always. :) Thank you!!
(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-15 09:41 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-15 09:43 pm (UTC)I think the part that really gets to me is how intense the effort can be. I think, should I really be working this hard in a conversation? Isn't this pretty much effortless for most people?
And if I find the Pope's Sekret LJ, I'll totally PM you. ha!
(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-15 09:57 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-08-15 10:05 pm (UTC)~ sera