Brains and conversations

[valis2]

So I've been brooding rather intensely for a few days, and it's brought some focus about my interpersonal conversational skills. Or rather, lack thereof.

I don't think I have ever had a clearer picture of just how much effort it takes for me to converse with people. Depending on who I'm having the conversation with, I engage layers, sometimes multiple layers, of modifiers in my brain to prevent the wrong thing from being said.

By layers I refer to processes meant to take certain things about my conversational partners into account. You could also term them as "filters," but I'm not certain that the word correctly conveys the meaning. I once took a quiz on LJ that claimed my conversational style was called "the Changeling." It was an incredibly accurate result. I am a different person with different people. With bookwench2096 I am sarcastic and absolutely raunchy. With my friends in WI I am less sarcastic and absolutely not raunchy at all.

A few examples of layers:


• Age. Am I speaking to someone young, or old? If so, I'll temper my conversation accordingly. I won't bother with references that either is not likely to get.


• Position. Is this person somehow my superior, or could impact my job or do they know one of my bosses? This layer is so horribly intense that sometimes I end up stammering like an idiot.


• OMG THEY ARE SO COOL. This is another layer that just kills me. It's particularly horrible at a con, for example, when I'm talking to someone really amazing like alchemia, someone I really admire, someone who is super talented. Sometimes I manage to get out something that resembles speech; most of the time I just manage to say something really stupid.


• Customer. Is this person thinking about buying something from me now, or maybe in the future? Another tough layer. I have to weed out anything that might possibly offend.


• Friend of a friend. I'm out to lunch with my sister, let's say, and her boyfriend's best friend. I have to somehow not embarrass both myself, and my sister. A unique kind of pressure.


• I want to say something clever now. Oh, this is the worst, this is the one that just destroys me. It means that I just about completely stop processing just so that I can desperately think of something clever to say. And sadly enough, if I weren't trying to think of something clever, I probably would have thought of something clever.


• Am I interrupting too much? Am I doing something weird with my hands? Am I smiling strangely? Internal questions often push me right over the edge and stop processing dead in its tracks. Especially when I immediately start obsessing over the last hundred conversations and whether I've interrupted too much or done something weird with my hands.

These layers engage to form a barrier to prevent me from hurting someone else's feelings, and they are based upon the person. The more layers that are engaged, the more I start thinking about them, and the more I have to put in intense effort to figure out what I can say, and the less I am actually able to get out that's intelligent and relevant.

So where did these layers come from? Well, my father is definitely where I eventually learned a lot of logic and analysis from. I am not logical by nature, you see. My "logic" is actually just a huge repository of remembered situations (or even remembered stories by other people). If something occurs, I look through my logic bag, and try to see if anything similar has happened to me, or if I've ever heard a story like that. Based on that, I'm sometimes able to formulate the best course. This "logic" also fuels the layers, in a way. I am very thoughtless in my conversations, and my father would often take me aside later and explain which things I'd said that were "wrong" and might have hurt the other person's feelings.

My mother, for example, likes to use self-deprecation to make other people feel better. "Oh, I can't draw at all! I'm the worst artist in the world! I can't even draw a smiley face!" she'll say. I picked this trait up early, and used it quite a bit. However, it backfires, and often. People get really sick of hearing you put yourself down (an ex-fiancée once went into a rage about it), and the worst is when you insult yourself in some way and the other person gets insulted by it indirectly. For example, one time I heard my mother talking about how fat she was and she went on and on about it, and her best friend just sat there with an uncomfortable look on her face, and then I suddenly realized that her best friend outweighs her by at least a hundred pounds. So this is something I've worked very hard to stamp out of my speech. I've also tried to get rid of another thing I picked up from my mother, which is the tendency to say, "I like it," and "oh, I hate that" about absolutely everything that anyone brings up. Hey, it's no problem to say it occasionally, but when you are just making every conversation a litany of your likes and dislikes, you are not really talking to someone. Especially if you're not explaining why you like it or don't like it. Especially if you're simply interrupting throughout the whole thing to say whether you like it or not. I think about conversations I had in my early twenties and I just cringe.

The emphasis on "right" and "wrong" words can be really difficult to get around. I often tailspin into paranoia, certain that someone is avoiding me because of something I've said, or implied, or that I wasn't interesting enough. This is exacerbated by society, in some ways. We are expected to not point out stupidity or insults in our conversations; most people will simply "be polite" and continue talking, and then later laugh about the gaffes to other people. I've done it myself. The problem with this is that I have to then rely on my faulty logic system and my elaborate layers system to prevent these gaffes, and sometimes it's just not possible. And because no one will tell you when you've really made a gaffe, I am left to imagine gaffes where there are none.

Of course, when I am certain about a real gaffe, it makes me cringe in a way that is pretty extreme, and I can beat myself up like nobody's business about it. I go back over old conversations, and I pull out flaws and magnify the stupid things I've said until I cannot understand why anyone would want to be friends with me, much less even talk to me. It's rather extreme, and usually I'm able to take a deep breath and slip off to the side of it. Sometimes, though, I sit and stew for a day or two, and this entry is the result of that. Just trying to understand the issues involved with this is helpful.

For me, online communication is a huge relief in some ways, and a new kind of fail in others. The layers are a little confused, especially at first, by this situation; I have no visual cues to set the proper layers in place, for example. I have no idea if I'm talking to rich, poor, young, old, the Pope, whatever. But I have the advantage of having time to think things through before I post them. I can check my words for double meanings that I didn't notice when I first thought of them. This eliminates a bunch of gaffes. Honestly, I'm terrible at subtext most of the time. The unsaid and unseen can flummox me. Nonverbal cues are not as obvious to me as they are to most, though I do still see them sometimes. So being online and having a little extra time, and not having the layers all pressing down at once screaming "DO NOT OFFEND HER! SAY SOMETHING CLEVER NOW NOW NOW!" is helpful, but then again, I still have to work very hard to avoid saying the Wrong Thing.

Please don't look at this as "Now I have to reassure Valis that she is not an evil bitch from another galaxy and that I like her" situation. I'm serious. This is me trying to know myself, and sharing the process, and hoping to hear of your own conversational styles and experiences.

Comments

[valis2.livejournal.com]

You know, I think Pact on the Island has the same thing going as Murray's True Love...It counts when you open each chapter, and I think some people go back repeatedly

Yes, I have a feeling that DYP just tracks hit counts, not actual "reads," and if you have it open in a tab, for example, and you leave it like that, and open your browser five times a week, then you'll have five new hits. I might be wrong, though.

It is a nice feeling, considering I have other stories with one hit, lol. And that was probably me, checking the formatting.

You're still sort of enjoying writing the big fic, though, right? That really is the point.

Absolutely. Though, as I've whined before, it's a roller coaster with me. Up and down, over and over again. Right now I'm kind of up, where I was deliriously up about a week ago and then kind of down. I'll go up and down again at least half a dozen more times before this is done.

And, yeah, the drabble thing could have been better. No offense there: it's just what I could do at the time.

Well, for me, the "could have been better" thing was really mostly formatting. As a few pieces instead of 21 I think it might have been a little easier to read, and it might have allowed you a bit more wiggle room with the scenarios. But remember, that's just my opinion, and honestly, what the hell do I know?

It sometimes feels like long the ones are almost pointless, doesn't it? I poured, what, 150K into Bonefish and maybe six people read it. It was the product of agonizing labor during a near total nervous breakdown, and reading it makes me physically ill. Which is where drabbles become really appealing.

I still have parts 5-8 open in tabs, btw. For some reason it's kind of a slow read for me. Not sure why, and don't worry about it, it's just me; I'm often weird about stuff. I think it's the medical. Yes, I know that I'm about as h/c obsessed as one can be, but permanent damage stuff really gets to me. So I'm a little freaked about Cody and the kidney donation. I'm trying to work past it, but I get that weird feeling every time I click on that tab.

And yep, it does feel like the long ones are probably pointless. I love this fic, but I feel like I'm stuffing every trick in the book into it. Everything but the kitchen sink. I have no idea if I'll be able to write anything after I'm done; it might sink me on Riptide stuff. I'm serious. If I work through all of my issues I get bored, lol.

I keep worrying about how to post it, too. The every day/every other day debate has been raging in my head for a month.

I figure the Quinlan thing will knock off my four remaining fans, but they'll go out laughing. I'll do up a nice fistfight for you, and Cody can break it up and tend Nick's wounds...Hopefully the insults and catbread jokes will see you through. :)

Um. It's Quinlan, you see. I will definitely see it through.

Hey, while we're being honest, no one seems to like Call and Answer, and I thought that was a winner from so many angles. Was Nick too big an asshole there, or did they not make up right, or what? I really want to know. I'm just like you, trying to piece it together and figure out what the heck people want, and I really thought I was on it that time. (I also thought Dance With the Girl should have worked better, but that's a whole other set of problems.)

My friend, I am the very worst with names, and I have no idea which one that one is. See, "drabble project" I can figure out. "Bonefish" I can figure out. What's the plot of Call and Answer? Then I'll try to remember my own reaction, which might not be very helpful for you, sorry in advance.

Anyway, I'm still really excited to read your story. There needs to be more, whether it's got Murray or not. I get so desperate for anything I didn't write myself. :)

hahaha! Yes, me too, re: the desperation thing.

I am dying to release this thing. I'm still going forward, slowly but surely. I've finished part eight in Semagic and am working on part nine. I think there are only two or three parts left. YAY.

[little-tristan.livejournal.com]

I hope this doesn't count as a spoiler, but Cody's going to be fine. It's much safer for the donor than the recipient. But really, it's me, so everyone's fine in the end. Even the secondary characters get happy endings. But I did way too much research and it makes my back and arms hurt when I think about it too much. Still, it's an improvement. When I first started it, I was so depressed that I had Cody dreaming about Bone Eddie because Murray was already dead. But there was nowhere to go from there so I axed it.

Funny, I did title the drabble project, but no one can remember the name (Peaceful the Knives) so I still just call it the drabble project. Probably always will. :) Call and Answer was the one where Nick slept with a woman and Cody threw him out. So he lived with the woman for a while, and then slept in his helicopter, and then he went crawling to Cody and Murray and they took him back. So he was totally the bad guy there. But you did read it. I went back and checked. :)

I'd love to see you post every day, just because I have no patience. And I know what you mean about running out of ideas. I've had that happen at least three times, so far. (And I've only been writing since March.) I was giving up again when oddmonster threw me that Quinlan thing. It had a terminous, but tinx_r took care of that, and now you've handed me the plot of #4 (although I still need a title). Anyway, even if you use all your tricks, there's always a way to rephrase them and use them again. But after 80K, you'll probably need a break anyway. Then you'll get a new idea.

Does the whole thing have to be done before you start posting? (Hinting for an ETA.) Is this encouraging, or pressuring? If it's pressure, I'll stop. But it's meant to be flattering. :)

[valis2.livejournal.com]

I hope this doesn't count as a spoiler, but Cody's going to be fine. It's much safer for the donor than the recipient. But really, it's me, so everyone's fine in the end.

Um. I kind of expected that, but just getting past that section makes me a little creeped out. And yes, I am so totally aware of how insane I look saying this, considering how much hurt I've put the characters through. I totally get how focused my obsession with h/c is. Super focused. On very specific things. And that other things creep me out? Hilarious.

So he lived with the woman for a while, and then slept in his helicopter, and then he went crawling to Cody and Murray and they took him back. So he was totally the bad guy there. But you did read it. I went back and checked. :)

Oh, I knew I had, but I can never remember the titles, so I didn't know which one it was. I think that sometimes I kind of react to your portrayal of Nick; sometimes it seems like he does pretty heavy things that are unthinking; I mean, yeah, he has moments, but I do recoil a little in some situations. That's just me, and that's just because I'm, um, a little obsessed with him. *snorts*

I'd love to see you post every day, just because I have no patience.

I'm still debating. There are some people who might not check in every day (gasp!) and I also don't want to overrun the comm too much. So I keep going back and forth. Some pieces are 9k, y'know? That's a lot to digest.

And I know what you mean about running out of ideas.

Hmm. I don't quite mean running out of ideas; I have plots for a major fic, a handful of minor fics, and an entire huge set of Gratuitous Nick H/C Scenarios. However, the issues which drive me to write them--if those dry out, I lose interest. That's the scary thing. I feel like there are only so many ways I can have them sit in the salon and discuss things. Trying to live on board the Riptide for fic after fic--trying to accomplish plots and not do it in a repetitive way--that's what I run out of. Because there are only so many ways that Nick and Cody can reassure Murray that he's an integral part of the team without repeating yourself, you know? And once I've done that issue, I'm not really so interested in repeating it.

But Nick gets in a sticky situation and ends up in a h/c situation? That I could do 3576312487135 times. I think I already have, in my head. ha!

and now you've handed me the plot of #4

*scratches head* Wow, I don't remember that, but go forth and prosper, my friend!

Anyway, even if you use all your tricks, there's always a way to rephrase them and use them again. But after 80K, you'll probably need a break anyway. Then you'll get a new idea.

Let's hope so! The other fic I really really really really want to write is another long one, I think, but fortunately (THANK GOODNESS) it's established relationship, which I'm dying to write after this long, chessboard nightmare of a story.

Does the whole thing have to be done before you start posting? (Hinting for an ETA.)

Yeah, I want it finished before posting. I don't think I want to inflict WIPs on people anymore; it's too sad if I don't finish, or don't finish on time. However, given that I'm home all August and part of September, I have reasonable hopes of finishing it before I leave. *knocks on wood*

Is this encouraging, or pressuring? If it's pressure, I'll stop. But it's meant to be flattering. :)

Dude, it's the most flattering thing ever, believe me. *nodnod* I could talk about writing this story forever. Except I don't want to inflict it on the flist.

The scary thing about talking about it, though, is that I don't want to set up hype that the story won't live up to. That keeps me awake at night, too. *nodnod*

[little-tristan.livejournal.com]

I have to go to bed in a minute, but I wanted to say, you're right. I do put Nick in some unpleasant situations and the only thing I can say is that it's a holdover from childhood. When I was a kid and first watching the show, he scared me. He seemed angry and unpredictable, and I had the feeling Cody was controlling him. Even protecting Murray from him. Watching it now, I'm not sure why I thought that, but I can't shake the feeling. So, yeah, he gets into some fixes. That hotheaded Italian thing, I guess.

Makes me worry about your reaction to the next one that's coming up, where he does another very bad thing, but it's totally accidental. I didn't see you there accidental, rather than I don't know what I was thinking, but still...Maybe there's not a difference for you. If that's so, I'd better rewrite it. And none of that "it's your story" thing, this time it kind of matters. :)

How come everyone has to reassure Murray that he's useful? Can't he just be useful?

[valis2.livejournal.com]

I have to go to bed in a minute, but I wanted to say, you're right. I do put Nick in some unpleasant situations and the only thing I can say is that it's a holdover from childhood. When I was a kid and first watching the show, he scared me. He seemed angry and unpredictable, and I had the feeling Cody was controlling him. Even protecting Murray from him. Watching it now, I'm not sure why I thought that, but I can't shake the feeling. So, yeah, he gets into some fixes. That hotheaded Italian thing, I guess.

Oh, wow! That's really interesting! Because I definitely get that from your writings--it really comes through. Very very interesting.

See, I was totally obsessed with Cody when I originally watched them in the eighties. I really adored Cody and thought he rocked big time. In fact, I barely remember Nick--I remember Murray more than Nick!

And now, somehow it's all transferred to Nick. ha!

Makes me worry about your reaction to the next one that's coming up, where he does another very bad thing, but it's totally accidental.

Oh dear! Well, bring it on. Don't worry about changing stuff for me; I'll just deal with it. I'm hardly your whole audience, lol. ;)

How come everyone has to reassure Murray that he's useful? Can't he just be useful?

It's all about Murray and his insecurity, which pops up every so often, y'know? And it's a trait I share with him, which is why I have been really wanting to explore it for a long time. But once I've explored it, I'm not sure I'll explore it again. *nodnod*

[little-tristan.livejournal.com]

Nope, no can do. I have to change it now. It's okay, actually (assuming poor catyah isn't done and now has to start over), because I'm really taking it back to what it was going to be before I changed it the first time. If that makes sense. See, just this one time, you kind of are my whole audience, so if it falls apart on you at the end, I failed, and will have to crawl under the patio. No pressure, but you don't want that, right? :)

[valis2.livejournal.com]

Oh noes! Now I feel hellaguilty. I'm so sorry--please don't change it on my account!

Then again, if it prevents you from crawling under the patio...

[little-tristan.livejournal.com]

Okay, disembowling you was *so* not the point here. Take deep breaths and repeat after me "It's better this way". I figured catyah would call me out on the ending anyway ("I love it, of course, but you can do better", she'd say, and I'd know she's right, because I knew it first.) It's all shiny now with panic!Nick and war flashbacks and all kinds of things I never write, but probably should.

Never feel guilty for making someone do her best. :)

[valis2.livejournal.com]

My ideas on changing SPAG and logic problems? That's quality control. My ideas on changing plot to better suit my own rather silly predilections? That's not really quality control--that's just greedy me. lol.

[little-tristan.livejournal.com]

I'm not knowing what SPAG is. Sorry. But this is a one-two, really. I took it in an unnatural direction, because I wanted to go there, knowing full well it would come off forced and unnatural. Now, I could try and work with that, or I could give it the proper ending, which more people will like anyway. So, not really a problem. These things often go their own way. Untergehen, for instance, was supposed to go on for another 2 or 3 pages, but after Nick and Cody sat down at the end of the pier and started staring off to sea, it was over. Nothing I could do about it.

This one, which is, by the way, the one that starts with the lovely wrench throwing bit, was actually conceived around the idea that got cut. I'm just putting it back. So it's really not your doing. I just need to be told to do the right thing sometimes. :)

[valis2.livejournal.com]

SPAG = Spelling Punctuation and Grammar

This one, which is, by the way, the one that starts with the lovely wrench throwing bit, was actually conceived around the idea that got cut. I'm just putting it back. So it's really not your doing. I just need to be told to do the right thing sometimes. :)

heh. The stories sometimes tell themselves, you know. But I'm too much of a control freak to admit it. ha!!

[little-tristan.livejournal.com]

I know! Writing used to seem like the ultimate form of control to me. I made the world! I control their lives! But the stories tell themselves, and if I try to work them too hard, they get back at me by sucking.

This one's currently dragging me all over hell's half acre, but it's the way to go, so no complaints.:)